Personal View site logo
Make sure to join PV on Telegram or Facebook! Perfect to keep up with community on your smartphone.
RAW makes obsolete all your skill
  • 287 Replies sorted by
  • GravitateMediaGroupGravitateMediaGroup

    @bannedindv I to have a BMCC. And so you agree that it makes life a little more flexible and opens a lot of possibilities in post?

  • ZmuZmu

    "I don't HAVE to accept the job if somebody doesn't want to pay my asking price. Being the shape that the economy is in, I will be flexible and work within their budget if it was say..a friend of a friend type of thing."

    And there it is in your own words: the pricing ethos that has caused all your frustration & resentments.

    [the upper case 'HAVE' is the sign post my friend] no "tactics" req. heard it all before Hmmm... no mention of what you charge how many freebies you do etc. but expect me to pass on my details – don’t think so – I’ve already got to the truth behind it.

    You’ve based getting work on your low pricing and then wonder why you can’t increase it. You’re trapped in your own sales pitch. You see others around you earning more – so you call their rates ‘a joke’ Take responsibility for where you find yourself and make some changes. You’ll never earn $2-3K - it’s got nothing to with your camera – it’s a result of what’s going on in your head.

    ps "friend of a friend" ? sounds like 6 degrees of separation has killed yr pricing structure : )

  • MimirsanMimirsan

    Im gonna chime a little. I have a friend who hired a professional photographer who has had over "30 years experience" who charged a bomb. Shooting with a 5D. He also had his uncle who was going around taking snaps with his 7D, Its just his hobby. The pictures by the uncle were better than the "pro" by a long shot.

    Any overcharging fucker can call themselves a pro these days...doesnt mean you have the skill even with the "experience"

    Technology has closed the gap. Only what is left is talent to make a good photo. More and more people are knowing photography enthusiasts.Be it a family member or a friend who will do it for them rather than pay ludicrious prices.

    I dont believe in this self proclaimed pro bullshit anyway. Yeah I know the term professional is used by those who make a living from a specialised type of work. The paying client looks for pros because theyre supposed to deliver a better product than by a non pro. Using RAW or not. Its not always the case.

    Just because one works in the field for a length of time does not make them any good at it. Ive seen many "pro" looking stuff done by "amatuers"

    Theres no such thing as a professional in my book. If you think you're the best as you can be then you've lost the ability to do even better...you should never stop learning and improving your skills right up to death.

    Basically..if you have the talent and know how to use the tools you use and also a willingness to expand your skill then you get the best results.

    Raw can help anyone make their bad photo better...but thats only a small part of the skillset.

    Sometimes a bad photo is just that.

  • GravitateMediaGroupGravitateMediaGroup

    @mimirsan

    Best thing I've heard yet out of this topic.

    @zmu I'm SOOO glad you have me all figured out, Im not a wedding videographer, but I'm more than capable. When I do get asked, I tell them a price, take or leave it, unless it's somebody I know. I don't shoot wedding as a career . But it is a fact Joe Blow up the road "photographer" is in the business over charging clients because he knows he can manipulate and crop the image to convince a client that he's a "pro"

  • ZmuZmu

    ...who mentioned anything about wedding videography? Do you have a problem with wedding videography?

    I have a great respect Wedding shooters, how hard they work and how quick they have to think.

    Maybe thats what I do...maybe I'm Joe Blow : )

    Like I said this is all about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

  • GravitateMediaGroupGravitateMediaGroup

    @zmu it's not all about the $$$m some people just naturally like to take pictures, even it's just to document a family memory, maybe a kids birthday, who knows. To you, it's all about the money, and just because you are getting paid, doesn't make you a professional photographer, it just makes you "a photographer."

  • MimirsanMimirsan

    @GravitateMediaGroup

    I know where your coming from. The advancements in technology and the availablity of it cheaply to general public make a once specialised service into something non specialised. The times are changing.

  • ZmuZmu

    Go to bed you have school tomorrow.

  • mrbillmrbill

    @GMG - what part of the business do you work in?

  • MimirsanMimirsan

    @Zmu Your naivity will lose you money in the long run. Id be worried mate. Future generations are getting savvy. Why pay someone a grand to take pretty photos when they can do the same themselves for less ;-)

  • MirrorkisserMirrorkisser

    @gravitatemediagroup: i agree, that raw makes it a lot easier for amateurs to make technically decent photos.

    But raw has nothing to do with art or composition or framing. You can give me the best camera in the world and i wont make you a movie like Tarkovsky or Kurosawa does. Yes maybe one or two shots will look technically alright. But art has nothing to do with technical ability, but is a process between the unconscious and conscious. Its about a deep feeling you can transport and that has a resonance at somebody else.

    And no, not every photo is art. Although everybody has a different perception of what touches him deeply, neuroscientists like nobelprice winner eric kandel and others have defined certain parameters for art, areas in the brain which are stimulated under those conditions.

    So i guess we should distinguish between CRAFTSMANSHIP and ART. Raw improves the possibilities to correct actions during the process of taking a picture that would formerly have resulted in a deficient picture. So they look like more craftsmanship now. And you can correct some framing. And not any framing is good as you said earlier. There are framing rules that can be violated of course, but still they exist. A badly taken photo can still be art though, if it transports a feeling or a relation between photograph and subject/object of photography. But that is nothing, that will be introduced through photoshop or anything else into a picture so hence has nothing to do with raw.

  • MirrorkisserMirrorkisser

    @Mimirsan: everybody thinks he can do it for himself and for less. Thats why 60% of all websites hurt my eye. They look awful and they are not based on any deeper concept. Same goes for graphics design. People think they make great logos, will its utter bullshit. People dont go to artschools to study graphicsdesign for 5 years for nothing.

    And there are hundreds of other areas where its the same. Its just where Vitaliys curve comes into play. You dont know whats good and right and the possibilites so you think you do prime class top notch stuff. And some customers simply dont know anymore whats good. They got introduced to massproduction lowquality stuff. Some people think their 50$ crap suit is top notch. Go with that to Milano and you will see what a good suit is and that it unfortunately costs maybe 10 times as much. Same goes for coffee, shoes, tools (you get screwdrivers for 1 $ these days). The problem is the system that suggerates you that shit is good and most people cant tell good from shit apart anymore.

    I agree though, that technical progress makes things, that were unapproachable before for amateurs slighty accessable, it does not look like vodoo or magic anymore. But it does not mean you can do it as good.

  • MimirsanMimirsan

    @Mirrorkisser I agree and its a damn shame. But thats the way things are going. Saying that if you do it for living or not...theres no replacement for pure skill and talent. ;-)

  • bannedindvbannedindv

    Oh Noes - everyone can be a photographer now that this came out:

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brownie_(camera)

    I haven't seen one compelling thing to back up your "thesis" here.

    Lets back up to the beginning.

    What is your thesis? Next, make a case for it.

    If your argument is that you are a purist and RAW makes your shooting skills obsolete - then what the fuck do you think people were doing in a darkroom for over 100 years? Processing and correction. It just took some more manual labor. Or did you think that all pictures came out of a Polaroid camera, or were processed by magical elves at Walmart?

    Do you know what a thin negative and a thick negative are? If not I would like to propose a crowd sourcing based on $1 increments to send you to a community college photography class emphasizing shooting on the "everyone can do it" 35mm Nikon/canon/Olympus/Pentax/whatever SLRs and the darkroom process, as well as the history of photography.

    I'd like it if the public paid for you to take an entire semester of photography and Cinema related classes at community college in New York, Chicago, or California - then get back to us with your view on RAW and what it means to your work.

    If your argument is that you have to be a purist then please donate all of your camera equipment to Charity - and get some paint brushes. It's cheating to make a picture with the assistance of a lens and emulsion or sensor - you need to draw every image by hand.

    Scratch that - we can't make any representational images because that's the work of god. Let's just go live in caves and keep womenfolk covered from head to toe.

    Your lack of a clear mission statement here has turned me into a cynical fuck.

    Politely - I'm going to ask how old are you, and where were you raised?

  • MirrorkisserMirrorkisser

    @bannedindv: you gave me my first smile today :) @mimirsan: yes its a true shame. I just hope that one day people will enjoy, recognise and value true quality again. I think everybody has his niche, some know about building remote control cars, some about building rockets and some about how to make a truly good sushi. They know that they need quality ingredients, passion, talent and knowledge to suceed in their materia. Still they think what others do can be learned by watching a youtube video for 10 minutes. I cant wait for the day when we will see self-declared brain-surgeons, who give you surgery for a 70% discount and a set of plastic pots.

    I must say though, i enjoy this discussion and see that many others do, too. Thanks for initiating this @gravitatemediagroup.

  • MimirsanMimirsan

    @bannedindv eh? Its sunday go have a beer mate :-D

  • GravitateMediaGroupGravitateMediaGroup

    It's nice to see some people are understanding what I'm trying to say.
    Which is....

    There are pro photographers that are amazing at what they do (skill, experience, art, vision, and so on)

    But with the help of technology, there are people who are calling themselves photographers, good or bad, paid or not. That even if there isn't anybody on P-V that respects their work, the average person would be convinced they they are a pretty good photographer.

    There are people in this world that don't care about the "rules" of photography they just LOVE to take pictures, whether it's on a smart phone or a Canon 1DC. If it's TRULY a passion of theirs, and they are doing it for say a hobby, or to document something, I wouldn't dare say "YOU'RE NOT A REAL PHOTOGRAPHER!!"

    I know a ton of skateboarders that are not professional, and can't do the same tricks that a professional could do....and at the end of the day, they are still "a skateboarder" make sense?

    I'm not trying to make enemies from this topic, I still love you all the same as I did last week. (except BurnetRhoades aka Hollywood Graphics Guru turned P-V's local expert on everything lol)

  • rsquiresrsquires

    RAW on my GH2 is a godsend. I would never go back to shooting without it. It captures so much more than what traditionally you would be able to. And when I get home and edit I have the ability to mold the picture to how I remember it. Film had tremendous range but RAW can and no doubt will go further. If the aim is to capture what you see then RAW wins every time in circumstances where highlights get blown out and shadows get starved of light. So where a traditional photographer might know to compensate with lighting or a reflector etc to get a shadow to fill, this isn't as necessary when the sensor records this information for you so you can bring it back if needed. It's a pretty complex subject because this doesn't even scratch the surface of composition.

    But it goes further. The reason photographers and cinematographers rely on lights to recreate reality is because of the inherent limits of film/digital in comparison to the naked eye. Think of how one shoots an interior scene with an exterior view. You have to either limit the light coming in the window with ND or increase the level of light in the interior. That's the reason feature films have huge trucks packed with lights. But RAW is really starting to make a difference in this area and I believe that give a professional cinematographer the ability to shoot low light and a much greater Dynamic Range and they would jump at the chance. I remember one famous cinematographer whose name escapes me marvelling at the fact that you could if you wanted shoot with the light of the moon using a Nikon DSLR. He was excited by the prospect. Lighting then comes down to personality and mood because you aren't lighting just to achieve perceived reality, you are embellishing to create texture and enhance the design.

    I also think that most amateurs would not know RAW or how best to use it. I know people who have expensive 7D's who rarely put it out of full auto mood. Which is a crying shame but a fact of life.

  • ZmuZmu

    Guys, the RAW 'revolution' is no different to every other development that has happened in the last 20 yrs. Every time a 'game-changer' happens a bunch of people shout "it's the end of the old world - now it's our time" But it never happens - the truth is I get a lot of gigs from direct clients that have been burnt by people who have a DSLR capable of quality 1080 footage. Advertising Agencies are savvy and don't go there - but they learnt the hard way. My 15 yo business has grown over the last 4yrs at an average 14% - I try to hire as young people as I can as assistants to pass on what I have learn't [and still learning] but 7 out the last 8 have been a disaster - people who think they know so don't listen - [too much internet has made everyone a director it seems] when you try and show them something they think "who do you think you are" this leads to MISTAKES every time. I earn my rates [and quote against Alexa & Red crews] using a Panasonic AG 102 and a GH2/Atomos Samurai/Voigtlander glass/Panasonic glass & Helios. I have an Isco54, 36 & LA7200. No RAW - no Arri - no Red - no $20K+ glass. This is about so much more than having RAW capable kit - it's about things like understanding the 3 prominent tiers in the market: Low - Mid & High end clients. There's more: interpreting a script, client relations, identifying agency/client expectations etc etc.... I'm sorry but I don't feel worried about my future. Every time I load my truck the fact is never lost how lucky I am to be paid for something that I am passionate about. ps I'm actually thinking of buying a Sony FS700 - not a BMCC - entry level high speed capture is going to have a greater return in the next 18months - 2 yrs than a $3K RAW kit - you see there's a another aspect: Marketplace Uniqueness. Happy RAW Shooting fellas

  • vicharrisvicharris

    @Zmu Can I come AC or PA for you! :)

  • stoneystoney

    Check out Fuji X10 group photo http://www.flickr.com/groups/fuji_x10/

    See the sheer number of photos in relatively short time period where "Members can post 2 things to the pool each day." Believe it or not most of the photos are not processed from RAW files because Fuji's X-Trans RAW support has been totally suck. The fact shocked many people, but more people are finding how good SOOC jpegs are. The newly released X20 is expected to improve image details by 30% by removing AA filter and improving processor & algorithm.

    The latest Olympus m43 bodies generate 11MB jpeg from 16MP sensor. In-camera color noise reduction is fantastic. I could duplicate it from RAW file with the latest Lightroom or Photoshop, but each processing does take time. If anything can save me many man hours, I'll take it. I'm not against RAW processing though. I used to be all RAW shooter. But in-camera jpegs are getting better to the point where I don't use RAW unless I must.

  • GravitateMediaGroupGravitateMediaGroup

    @stonebat I understand that a good photographer can take an amazing picture with the worst camera.

    But could your average/regular so called photographer be able to pull it off without the help of RAW or photoshop?

    With RAW the "average photographer" will continue to flood the industry everyday and get away with it because the development of technology helps them every year.

    It's scary to think about when & if vector photo/video cameras hit the scene. There is already progress being made everyday for it, same with holographic technology. (Not holographic cameras, just other weird sci-fi stuff, but if anybody has seen rumors of holographic camera technology, please share)

  • GravitateMediaGroupGravitateMediaGroup

    @rsquires

    Well said +1

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    @GravitateMediaGroup

    Get any good book about painting techniques and principles.

    Right now it is pointless to countinue discussion.

    P.S. Painting, btw, is a absolute raw :-)

  • GravitateMediaGroupGravitateMediaGroup

    @vitaliy_kiselev

    I leave the painting to my wife lol

    Now that she has learned photoshop and illustrator decently, she would rather do a project with it. I think she likes ceramics the best, because when you are done making something, you really can set back with a physical object in your hand get some satisfaction from the thought & feeling that "I Created this with my own hands, every shape, every design, every curve" that's if you create without a wheel I guess. And although she isn't a professional with ceramics, she sure can make some pretty cool (convincing) stuff. ; )

Add a Comment