Web streaming + HDMI recording 2-3GHx's

andrevanberlo

As there are quite a few videographers around here that use much of the same equipment i do I thought this forum is the best place to post my question.

I want to use the HDMI of my 2 GH3’s for webstreaming using some software like wirecast but also for recording instructional videos on my Mac.

Now I’ve been looking at solutions from AJA, Matrox, and Blackmagic but I’m unsure which one actually does what i need it to do.

This is the short list of features that I’m looking for: 2 hdmi inputs that can be streamed simultaneously to the web Able to record the HDMI of both cams to an SSD the device or card would help out with any rendering done by FCPX , Pr, AE, etc...

Extra’s: I have also one GH2, I’ve read that the HDMI of the GH2 is useless for recording but maybe it can be used for streaming? The possibility of adding the GH2 to the setup and thus having 3 cams would be a welcome bonus but not necessary.

I have an RME fireface 800 that i'll be using for audio capture.

What would you all see as the best way to go about doing this?

joesiv

We have used GH2's for web streaming using a PC with cheapo HDMI capture cards in it. The GH2 has good image quality for it, but the interlacing makes the image really break down when in motion. But it might be good enough for you.

As for recording each cameras for post editing, why don't you just hit the record button and bring in the files after the fact. It will be a lot less stressful on the CPU and HDD of the streaming computer.

Meierhans

I would head for either internal or USB3 Blackmagic shuttle. Should do the job.

@joesiv If you are in PAL land you can use HBR to get clean 25p out of the cam (you need to turn on recording, a cheap 32 gb card and settings tuned to very low bitrate will do the trick). There is also many ways to deinterlace in software when streaming, no need to hurt viewers eyes with artefacts.

andrevanberlo

thanks for the reply!

@meierhans do you mean the intensity shuttle? http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/intensity/models/

I was checking that but I figure i would need to buy 2 right, one for each camera?

@joesiv I was trying to get a way to capture HDMI from the GH3's but not simultaneously during streaming. I record many instructional videos and having the files in prores on SSD means I could go right into editing without the need for transcoding.

I was also looking at the ATEM and saw someone who uses that but I can't figure out how you connect 3 cam's HDMI's to that device as you only have 1 HDMI input. I also couldn't figure out if you can record that stream at the same time. Seems like they have a distinction between capture cards/devices and streaming ones

Oblikovalnik

Try this one - i use it with 2 gh2 and go pro 3 it works great! http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/atemtelevisionstudio/

andrevanberlo

@oblikovalnik I looked at that one before and it looks fantastic... but how do you hook up 3 hdmi outputs to that rig? do you connect them to the HD-SDI's? I was also wondering if you can tell me if I can also use it to record the HDMI of my camera's to an SSD.

btw, go pro 3 looks pretty awesome!

Oblikovalnik

@andrevanberlo It's a live editing solution which just outputs what comes in - in my case its the 50i off the gh2 - not perfect, but usefull for some scenarios - also it does encode a mp4 version of your edit, so this could be enough for your needs - I dont know about the SSD's, there is only one program output via HDMI, and you can connect 4 cameras via HDMi - look at their site for more.

BR

Oblikovalnik

check this thread as well - http://www.personal-view.com/talks/discussion/5810/studio-setup-with-atem-television-studio-switcher-and-ghx/p1

kavadni

Other than the bit about streaming 2 cameras simultaneously, my system would be capable of doing the rest - I don't do it quite like that - I only send one stream to the net switching live.

BMD Atem Television Studio for camera inputs (4xHDMI+2xHDSDI or 2xHDSDI and 2xHDMI).

A notebook computer - My Win i7 (Toshiba Qosmio Notebook) switches the ATEM, record h264, and streams using MX Light all at the same time.

I also record the output on SSD using a BMD Hyperdeck Studio

If you want to record each GH2 to an SSD, you'll need a recorder for each camera and a HDMI splitter for each ... I record to cards in the cameras as iso.

I record multitrack audio using Behringer ADA8000's and a Presonus LightPipe via firewire on a Macbook Pro.

You'll also need an audio delay line, as the vision through the ATEM has a delay

And atleast in PAL land, the HDMI output is fine.
I should also add generally I am running 6 cameras at a time (only 1 being a GH2 which I use for the wide/safety)

kavadni

I was also looking at the ATEM and saw someone who uses that but I can't figure out how you connect 3 cam's HDMI's to that device as you only have 1 HDMI input.

It has 6 inputs ... 2 are always HDMI ... 2 are always HDSDI, the other two can be either.

joesiv

@Meierhans I live in ntsc land, perhaps I could still get deinterlacing to work well, but the software I use for live streaming (vidblaster) is a bit of a nuisance for such tasks, as the Camera 1 module has deinterlacing, but doesn't play nice with my avermedia capture cards, and Camera 2 module doesn't have deinterlacing but is more reliable for capture. I haven't had much time to really look into it (volunteer work). @andrevanberlo in all honesty what you're trying to do (mix/live stream, while simultainiously recording more than one cameras output directly to file) might not be plausible with a cheap software solution. This is why companies offer products like the tricaster exist. The Tricaster, in all iterations will live stream and mix multi cameras, and also allow you to record each camera simultaneously to file at the same time. Of course, the cheapest tricaster is $5000 and only offers HD analog inputs, and the next step up offering HD-SDI starts at around $20,000, but that's the kind of thing you're looking for.

I believe if you pay for higher Tiers of the vidblaster software suite you get similar functionality (south of $2000), I'm only using the "Pro" tier, but I think I could export each camera to a decklink card if I had it, but then you'd still not be there. Not to mention you'd still need a PC that is fast enough both in CPU but also HDD. I'm already pushing my i7 to the 80-90% mark and typically only dealing with 2 HD inputs (with some chroma keying).

This is why I suggest, if you can, just save to the camera, and leave the computer/streamer, for just that mixing and streaming.

andrevanberlo

Thanks for the replies you all, this is a wealth of information

@kavadni from what i could piece together from the screenshot of the backside of the atem on the online store it has one hdmi input and one output so the output works either way? I any case i have 2 extra inputs to use as hdmi (probably need a converter for them) And if i understand you correctly, the atem is only able to send 1 stream to the computer at a time? Or is the software that comes with the Atem the limiting factor? I want to stream a split screen, something i think i saw in wirecast promo video Hyperdeck seems good option for hdmi capture

@oblikovalnik i'm not trying to stream and record simultaneously but as the ATEM looks like a video interface i was wondering if it could be used to the streaming when i need it to, but also to be able to record multiple hdmi streams for my instructional videos. I would not be doing both at the same time but if it is possible it would save me the purchase of 3x hyperdeck When im streaming i would probably do what you suggested: record in .mov format to the memorycard.

Perhaps buying 2 pci cards with hdmi in combination with software like wirecast would do the trick? But then i would still need a way to record 2 hdmi streams and i don't know if that can be done on my computer (i think fcpxonly allows recording on 1 channel at once)

@craichead do you use your gh3's at the same time or are you switching between them all the time?

andrevanberlo

@kavadni sorry, i looked at the wrong device! Indeed there are multiple hdmi inputs. I've been going back and forth between matrox, bmd, and aja websites so much that things got messed up inside my head.

Isnt the multiview a way to be able to show 2 camera streams at the same time with the ATEM?

I also read somewhere that you need to delay the audio to be in sync with video, dont know how that would work when using external audio as i will be using the rme fireface for audio.

Other interesting device would be the Mx02 max http://www.matrox.com/video/en/products/mxo2_max/specs/

But it has 1 hdmi in and im not sure how many cams you can hook up to it using convertors. You can use this device with wirecast which would do the streaming part of it.

CRFilms

I follow a lot of gaming commentators on youtube, and they've been streaming games on twitch for years now using happauge hd dvr. http://www.hauppauge.com/site/products/prods_hd-recorders.html

The problem with that is, it's 1080i max, but can do 720p 60fps, which for youtube and most online streaming is fine, but it also means you have to play your games at 720p. The main benefit of the HD DVR is it uses internal encoding and doesn't need high horsepower CPUs or disks to record.

A company just came out with a new competing recorder called Elgato. http://www.gamecapture.com/ It has HDMI input and is a fraction of the size of the HD DVR and is powered by the usb input. It can do hd pass though at full 1080p 60fps and records at 30fps. It has some of the best quality I've seen streamed for the price and I've seen people stream picture in picture with it, though I think that's using the HDMI in plus a pc's web cam. Don't know if you could use two Elgatos on the same machine and use that as a form of switching.

andrevanberlo

@CRFilms i dont know that hardware, i'll checkt it out!

In the mean time someone at creative cow brought me to the idea of using the BMD decklink quad as it has 4 seperate ins and outs it can be used with wirecast but the card should also work with fcpx with rendering. It would need a beefy mac though...

klem007

http://www.personal-view.com/talks/discussion/6184/live-streaming-with-teradek/p1

andrevanberlo

@klem007 looks good!

kavadni

@andrevanberio

Re Atem TV Studio

Isn't the multiview a way to be able to show 2 camera streams at the same time with the ATEM?

It always displays the 8 inputs, preview and program.

I also read somewhere that you need to delay the audio to be in sync with video, dont know how that would work when using external audio as i will be using the rme fireface for audio.

Correct, I use Beringer src2496. You can alternatively input sound via the audio inputs on a camera, and the ATEM gives the correct delay. Not an option if using only GH2 - no audio over hdmi.

kavadni

Also, if I was wanting to send multiple streams ... my thoughts would be all camera inputs into a video hub for a split to the ATEM TVS and feeding multiple stream devices

andrevanberlo

@kavadni Thanks for your input!

1st: awesome studio you are building! just saw the pictures, wow, that's what i want for myself when i have the chance (and money)...

about the views: i know you can have an overview of all incoming streams but is it possible to put out 2 streams or more at the same time presenting a split screen to the viewers of lets say a wide shot and a closeup of something?

about sound: so when i use in-camera audio only i don't need to delay, but when using my RME fireface for audio input I will have to use an audio delay unit like that src2496. (or perhaps it can be done with the RME, i haven't looked into that yet)

I guess when using the GH2 that has no audio through the HDMI setting the delay properly is a matter of trial and error i guess. hopefully the delay is the same for both GH2 and GH3...

"my thoughts would be all camera inputs into a video hub for a split to the ATEM TVS and feeding multiple stream devices"

I'm not sure if i follow you here, do you mean that i put the HDMI outs in the video hub, route from there to multiple ATEM studio's? What would be the added benefit? (sorry if i misunderstood your idea!)

I also thought out this as a possibility: Decklink Quad in combination with wirecast, I could feed 4 HDMI inputs into that Quad and use Wirecasts software to handle the streaming part. I was told though that i would need a very powerful Mac to handle this, minimum 8 cores...

kavadni

@andrevanberio

I am little confused by your use of 'stream' ... for me, that is what you send to the internet.
When you say 2 streams, do you mean two separate streams to the net of say 2 cameras?
Or do you mean a single stream with a split screen or picture-in-picture of 2 cameras?

andrevanberlo

"I am little confused by your use of 'stream' ... for me, that is what you send to the internet. When you say 2 streams, do you mean two separate streams to the net of say 2 cameras? Or do you mean a single stream with a split screen or picture-in-picture of 2 cameras?"

i understand the confusion, i get confused all the time, probably because i'm more an "audio-man" than video... (although that is changing rapidly these days...)

What i mean is 1 stream to the net containing the footage of 3-4 camera's at the same time. I guess that is picture in picture or a single stream with a split screen.

I would like to stream something like this in a live setting adding 1 or 2 cams (total of 4) for the overview shots:

When i'm not streaming live i would like to be able to use the same device to channel the hdmi outputs to my computer so i can record the HDMI onto SSD on my mac for editing. It would also be nice to do that during the live streaming so i can use all that material for post production.

I'm sorry if i'm unclear sometimes in my questions and aswers. A lot of things are still kinda new to me and as i'm audio productions and web development (minor) as well I have to know too many things at the same time...

(i'm really happy you're trying to help me out to get it right!)

kavadni

@andrevanberio

The ATEM TVS can do that (I watched until halfway through)

The moving guitars are two camera framed as shown with a wipe.
The lower third graphic would be the USK (upstream Key)
The upper third graphic would be one of two DSK (downstream Key)

A video hub/router has multiple inputs and outputs ... in my case 16 of each.
An example of usage would be to send input 1 (camera 1) to both output 1 and output 7, giving you an ISO to record and an input to the switcher.

I would suggest in this instance using stream to refer to what you send to the Net, to avoid confusion.

The Decklink Quad looks like a possible solution, however I am skeptical of software only solutions - Remember it's HDSDI which will mean you will need HDMI-HDSDI converters, which will double the cost of the card quad card. Or you can get HDSDI cameras.

Because I am skeptical of software only solutions, does not mean they won't work.

andrevanberlo

@kavadni : Thanks! Awesome that the ATEM can do that, some discussions on the ATEM led me to think that having multiple pictures in 1 frame was impossible with that device and that switching views was the only thing possible.

So the Decklink quad might be a possibility but will be way more expensive due to the extra HDMI-HDSDI convertors (i've seen the prices and they gave me quite a scare). Also the computer would have to handle all processes where the ATEM would handle a lot of things itself (streaming related). the Quad+Convertors+Wirecast would add up to $2,5K-3K
HDSDI cameras are no option at this point, just bought me those GH3's :-)
With the ATEM alone i could do the streaming the way i would like (split screen with all camera's), software is include with the ATEM. I would possibly need HDMI splitters (or videohub) to send a second signal from each camera to the computer. So I would also need a soundcard with 4 hdmi inputs to be able to record all 4 cameras hdmi's. Another possibility would be to just do incamera recording and use the ATEM for streaming (someone suggested that once), in that case all i would need would be the ATEM + hdmi cables and i would be ready to go... that would be $995
Another would be 3 intensity pro cards which each have an HDMI input, no video hub would be needed (i think) and could mean that an all software solution would be possible without the convertors. $597(3xintensitypro)+$500(wirecast)=$1097,-

The last would enable me to record HDMI+being able to do the streaming. Only question is if that last solution would really work.

Would you suggest ATEM for broadcasting (and use software that comes with it), use HDMI splitters to send HDMI's to the intensitypro's?

Should i want to use a videohub/interface, which one would you recommend for my setup (using 4 cams max)

I really appreciate the input, i feel i'm finally getting where i need to go!

EDIT: i saw 3 HD-SDI outputs on the ATEM studio,... does that mean I could route my hdmi signals from my cameras via the ATEM to my computer should it have 3 HD-SDI inputs? Would i be able to utilize that and record 3 streams at once on my Mac? Or doesn't it work like that...

"The ATEM TVS can do that (I watched until halfway through) The moving guitars are two camera framed as shown with a wipe. The lower third graphic would be the USK (upstream Key) The upper third graphic would be one of two DSK (downstream Key) A video hub/router has multiple inputs and outputs ... in my case 16 of each. An example of usage would be to send input 1 (camera 1) to both output 1 and output 7, giving you an ISO to record and an input to the switcher. I would suggest in this instance using stream to refer to what you send to the Net, to avoid confusion. The Decklink Quad looks like a possible solution, however I am skeptical of software only solutions - Remember it's HDSDI which will mean you will need HDMI-HDSDI converters, which will double the cost of the card quad card. Or you can get HDSDI cameras. Because I am skeptical of software only solutions, does not mean they won't work."

andrevanberlo

I got this message from techsupport from bmd, i figure from his info that i cant have 4 cameras in one splitscreen as he doesnt mention the ATEM STUDIO:

"With regard to your options: - On the 2 M/E Production Switcher model, you get a completely separate 5 layer switcher with the power of 4 picture in picture DVEs and 4 keyers connected as an ATEM video input. Also you have the option to use the AUX output - The ATEM 1 M/E and 2 M/E production switchers have auxiliary outputs which are spare SDI outputs that can have various inputs and internal sources routed to them. They are very similar to router outputs, and all video inputs, color generators, media players, program, preview and even color bars can be output. -The DL Quad will accept 4 discrete channels, but you will need a thirdparty software to control them (Wirecast or similar). -Hyperdeck studio 4K or Hyperdeck studio pro do not have 4 HDMI input and it is not certified for live streaming. It will only accept dual-link SDI for 4K but they do not have descrete channels. - I do not think the intensity Pro as a valid option for you, becouse of the input limitations. -Hyperdeck Studio or Pro are recording devices and they do not have any livestream capability. However you can loop through them, so that you can capture the ATEM output as well as distribute the signal to your DL Quad. (Please have a look to the Hyperdeck Shuttle)."

kavadni

I think the words of the BM representative are accurate.
The TVS allows wipe/dissolve/cut on 2 busses. 1 USK and 2 DSKs.

The 1ME is more powerful than the TVS ... that said it's $2.5K
It would have been my choice above the TVS, except for price and the primary usage of my rig, cut/dissolve live concerts with graphics done in post.

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