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Greece: Some results
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  • Start growing your own food and get off the grid, move to another country, start a business in another country, do contract work that is not location dependent, are some options.

  • Start growing your own food and get off the grid, move to another country, start a business in another country, do contract work that is not location dependent, are some options.

    Can work for few people. But it is not suggestion that works in any good numbers. Getting rid of labor division also results in big issues.

  • Well, elites always follow interests of the ruling class :-) People can't really live on mythological power...

    ...until they're prevented from doing so. 1789 and 1917 were a good examples of people living on their mythological power and depriving the elites ...of their interests .

  • Supreme Court prosecutor Efterpi Koutzamani on Tuesday took two initiatives in the wake of revelations by former Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis that he had planned a parallel banking system: she forwarded to Parliament two suits filed against the former minister last week by private citizens and she appointed a colleague to determine whether any non-political figures should face criminal charges in connection with the affair.

    The legal suits were filed last week by Apostolos Gletsos, the mayor of Stylida in central Greece and head of the Teleia party, and Panayiotis Giannopoulos, a lawyer. Giannopoulos is suing Varoufakis for treason over his handling of talks with Greece’s creditors.

    Want to escape holy banking system and make your own? Treason!

  • Greece would be OK, if only they had good administrators. Administrators do the dirty job, and then are disposed of, but somebody has to do the dirty job. That's why you have people looking for scapegoats like Varoufakis. Have him do the dirty job, and then you can blame him - everybody is happy, because the job is done and the "bad" guy who did the job is also punished. Think about those great administrators, Yagoda, Yezhov, Abakumov, Ryumin, and my favorite Beria. Somebody has to do the dirty job. I look at that history and think that the Greeks are complaining about a mosquito bite, they don't know what real sacrifice and suffering means.

  • Greece would be OK, if only they had good administrators. Administrators do the dirty job, and then are disposed of, but somebody has to do the dirty job.

    Any examples where ONLY good administrators made the difference? And where they had been "disposed"?

  • Look, the leader has to maintain an official "good guy" face, so when someone has to do a dirty job, the leader's reputation is maintained, so he has to "punish" the guy who does the dirty job. We all know what Greece needs - get out of the Euro - but the leader cannot agree to that because of public opinion, so he needs to have someone else to do the dirty job (like Varoufakis), and then punish and blame him after the job is done.

    [I removed example, due to PV rule, see PM]

  • This is Italy

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  • More Italy

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  • Some sane view:

    The ancient philosopher Heraclitus said “You cannot step twice into the same river”, but some Greeks today seem to be ignorant of this dictum. There is a discussion about the political forces that recently detached themselves from SYRIZA and announced the creation of a new party, Popular Unity (PU). The GS of the CC of the KKE, Dimitris Koutsoumpas, in reference to this development, stressed that “the same scenario must not be repeated at the expense of the people. In any case, the sequel is usually worse than the original film.”

    Since the early 2000s and onwards, especially after the assimilation of various groups (Trotskyists, Maoists etc.) and the transformation of Synaspismos into SYRIZA, this social-democratic programme was artfully enclosed in “radical”, “Anti-system”, “movementist” wrapping paper. Something that was reinforced after 2010, with the outbreak of the capitalist economic crisis. The signing of the anti-people agreements (memoranda) of the governments of PASOK and ND with the imperialist organizations (EU, IMF, ECB), which were accompanied by harsh anti-people measures, resulted in the adoption of the blurred “anti-memorandum” line by SYRIZA. At the same time, the rapid collapse of the social-democratic PASOK led to the absorption of many cadres of this party by SYRIZA. The false dilemma “memorandum-antimemorandum” allowed SYRIZA to hijack ideas, to deceive popular forces, promising that the people could be saved from the harsh anti-worker measures while remaining inside the framework of the EU and the capitalist development path, promoting the demand for the reduction of a section of the state debt, i.e. in essence accepting that the debt created by the governments of the plutocracy should be paid for by the people.

    In the context of the recomposition of the political scene in 2012, SYRIZA was supported by a section of the bourgeois class and increased its electoral strength enormously, achieving victory in the elections of January 2015. It formed a government with another party, ANEL, the basic core of which came from the conservative ND party and has nationalist tendencies.

    After 6 months of the SYRIZA-ANEL government, the Greek people came face to face with a new 3rd memorandum, which includes new antiworker-antipeople measures.

    If anything has been demonstrated in the most glaring way by the developments of recent months in relation to SYRIZA and its bourgeois governance, it is the complete bankruptcy of the political line which claims that it can serve both the monopolies and the people.

    http://inter.kke.gr/en/articles/SYRIZA-Mark-2-and-the-new-attempt-to-deceive-the-people/

  • Greece's social and political institutions are corrupt. That's the whole story right there. RottenCarcass is correct.

  • Greece's social and political institutions are corrupt. That's the whole story right there. RottenCarcass is correct.

    No, it is not the whole story, not even relevant at real scale. But mass media actively promote this version in EU and outside.

  • Corruption equals dysfunction. dysfunctional institutions, at any scale, tend to fail. There are functional states that don't have great energy resources -- it's not the primary factor.

  • Corruption equals dysfunction. dysfunctional institutions, at any scale, tend to fail.

    Corruption is normal properly of capitalism (and not only :-) ). Corruption always become widespread if rules that you must follow are hard or impossible to follow. It is like oil that prevents excessive friction.

    So, blaming the corruption is pointless, you must blame the system and class who set the rules.

  • @Vitaliy I'm saying something similar, corruption is the result of failed social institutions, a country's legal system (your example) is an example of a social institution and when such an institution fails, the doors to graft and theft swing wide open and the sharks swim in. Cynicism and income disparity increase, patriotism and hope decrease, a downward spiral.

  • @brianl

    You think that you say something similar :-) As you tell that lack of patriotism, bad people or some abstract institutions are corruption cause. I am telling that rules are set in interests of ruling class, yet in case of fundamental issues interests and rules come with contradiction with interests of most people (including representatives of ruling class). In normal state it also happens in some areas, but it does not become big issue. Corruption is natural mechanism that allow to break some of this rules or bypass them, sometimes to gain advantage but frequently just to survive or do something normal.

  • sigh, if only I spoke Russian, I could read my favorite writer, Chekhov, in his native tongue, lavish in the worlds of Dostoyevksy and Tolstoy, and also carry on this most interesting discussion with you. But dude, I just don't really understand most of your points here.
    I can clarify a few points though, no, I'm not saying lack of patriotism causes corruption, I'm saying lack of patriotism and cynicism are the consequences of corruption and such things are corrosive to the nation state.\

    And, an example of what we agree on, you say

    rules are set in interests of ruling class

    and I'm saying that's true when the legal system is corrupted.

    I also don't think it's meaningful to call corruption a "Natural mechanism". Cancer is also a natural mechanism, doesn't make it good thing.

  • sigh, if only I spoke Russian, I could read my favorite writer, Chekhov, in his native tongue, lavish in the worlds of Dostoyevksy and Tolstoy, and also carry on this most interesting discussion with you

    This discussion is quite far away from authors you mention.

    and I'm saying that's true when the legal system is corrupted.

    It is always true, in any system.

    As modern western countries is bourgeoisie dictatorship in the form of "democratic" institutions.

    I also don't think it's meaningful to call corruption a "Natural mechanism". Cancer is also a natural mechanism, doesn't make it good thing.

    Most natural things are not good or bad, they just are.

  • More than 300,000 applications for pensions are pending, representing total expenditure of 4 billion euros. The waiting time ranges between 12 and 24 months, while in certain cases it comes to three or four years.

    Three in 10 homeowners say they will be unable to pay their property taxes this year. At the same time, 40.5 percent of tenants say they are late with their rent payments, even though almost 70 percent have already seen their rental rates reduced due to the financial crisis.

    Some outlook at your nearest future.

  • Improvements continue

    Salaried employment in Greece recorded its second-worst performance of the last 15 years in September, as according to the Labor Ministry’s Ergani database the market lost 13,003 jobs on top of the last few months’ negative balance between people hired and those let go.

    Last month was the third in a row where departures outnumbered hirings, coinciding with the period since the imposition of capital controls on June 28. Since July 1 there have been 30,102 more people made redundant than those starting new jobs, although in the first nine months of the year hirings outnumbered departures by 173,021 jobs.

    Full-time employment hirings declined from 42.25 percent in September 2014 to 38.15 percent last month, while part-time employment saw its share grow by 15.46 percentage points in one year and shift work added 7.71 percentage points.

    http://www.ekathimerini.com/202516/article/ekathimerini/business/labor-market-lost-13000-jobs-last-month

  • Greek lawmakers approved package of economic changes and austerity measures late Friday, aiming to unlock the $2 billion loan money.

    The legislation covers some of the economic changes sought by the country’s international creditors, which include raising the retirement age, cutting pensions, liberalizing the energy market, opening up cosseted professions, expanding a property tax that Greeks already revile, and pushing forward a stalled program to privatize state assets.

  • Greece's Parliament has approved the 2016 budget that includes deep spending cuts and tax hikes amid economic recession.

    The government forecasts zero economic growth this year and a contraction of 0.7 percent in 2016.

    The budget makes 5.7 billion euros ($6.2 billion) in public spending cuts including 1.8 billion from pensions and 500 million from defense. The savings are greater than this year's 1.5 billion euros. It also included tax increases of just over 2 billion euros.

    Debt is forecast to grow to 327.6 billion euros ($356 billion) or 187.8 percent of GDP from 180.2 percent in 2015.

    If you do not want to solve problems by eliminating capitalism you get this.

  • The International Monetary Fund and other European partners are demanding that Greece implement further austerity measures to generate nearly €4bn in additional savings - contingency money in case Greece misses future budget targets

    Unions have said the proposed overhaul of the pensions system and rises in social security contributions are designed to win favour with eurozone finance ministers.

    Greece's largest labour union, the private sector GSEE, said the changes, were the "last nail in the coffin" for workers and pensioners.

    But Prime Minister Alexis Tsiprias said the reforms were essential, telling parliament "the system requires root and branch reform that previous governments have not dared to undertake", according to the AFP agency.

    Interesting isn't it?

    Capitalists never stop, they have no limit.

  • Interesting indeed. The power and money guys don't stop until they are stopped.

  • The power and money guys don't stop until they are stopped.

    And it seems that strikes are not enough :-)

    Sadly many union leaders fully forgot the point of the strikes and why they actually worked.
    Main point with Greece is that huge international guys want to fully buy out all social infrastructure and large firms. And the poorer citizens are - the better, as it will be all cheaper.