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Happy Idiots
  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    It always amazes me how many happy idiots exist in this world.

    Flash is dead, it is so good! HTML5 rulez!

    Guys, are you insane?

    To make very simple modern site you need to know:

    • HTML5 (constantly changing stuff)
    • CSS3 (even worse, implementation and features differ from browser to browser)
    • JavaScript (and this shit has specific quirks)
    • PHP or anything like it for server side

    Guys. This is fucking sick.

    One and only task for browser must be.. executing universal byte code. Period. No HTML, CSS3, JS, or anything like it. Just plain stupid byte code execution. Period.
    Yes, Google and Mozilla won't be happy as whole point of making new browser version every two days vanishes. But so what? It is time to move to modern RAD, and normal approaches.

  • 28 Replies sorted by
  • markussenmarkussen

    "Keep IT simple!"

    "Intelligence is to keep complexe scenarios simple, stupidity is to make simple things complex"

    "Dont make systems to control systems... which are controlled by other systems controlled by systems..... just prevent the failures in your basical system design!"

    " we dont look for problems, we dont look for solutions, we prevent problems!"

    "The majority of highly educated specialists tend to complicate the systems as an intellectual challenge instead of simply develloping goalorientated features."

    "The teacher tend to complicate the subject to indirectly gain honor for teaching such a complicated matter, instead of making a simple logical approach to understand and handle the complexity for the students."

    "overeducated - nonskilled" yes, we need more PhD taxidrivers!

    "if YOU gain wealth,position, power, prestige, it is OK to fool your costumers, students, clients, voters" (investment advisors, politicians, parents, sales, +++)

    build YOUR own oppinion!! and do not let people fool you!!

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    @markussen

    Yep, not fully on the subject. But yes.

    I like to say: "How many of your friends fluently speak on three languages? Yet any programmer is expected to know at least two, sometimes up to 5. So you must not be surprised then you look at produced code.".

  • RobertoRoberto

    So we produce websites as compiled binary? Does the browser execute this? or does the server interpret it and deliver via, say Java?

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    So we produce websites as compiled binary?

    As byte code. That can download other byte code :-)

    Does the browser execute this?

    Yes. This is very simple task :-)

    or does the server interpret it and deliver via, say Java?

    Don't understand that you mean here, as Java is both the language and Java VM. And no server has no business here, but it also executes byte code, just different.

  • sam_sticklandsam_stickland

    @vitaliy_kiselev I broadly agree with your point, but I'm not sure I completely agree. The majority of developers would still use some kind of layout engine? And this layout engine would probably use some form of markup language for describing the layout? Although now that I think about it, it would have the huge advantage of being consistent across platforms.

    So the innovation now shifts from the browser to "byte-code" libraries. Interesting.

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    The majority of developers would still use some kind of layout engine?

    I see no problems with it, as any code must have ability to load libraries.

    Although now that I think about it, it would have the huge advantage of being consistent across platforms.

    I see main advantage with being consistent in developers heads. So people could work normally and you could move developers between client and server applications. Or use any language you like for development.

    So the innovation now shifts from the browser to "byte-code" libraries.

    Not exactly. Browser will still have something like drivers providing access to canvas, sound, video acceleration.

    Btw, I can tell you why this things did not happen. Impact on general search engines will be huge, and ability to control information space will be diminished.

  • sam_sticklandsam_stickland

    Not exactly. Browser will still have something like drivers providing access to canvas, sound, video acceleration.

    This could be implemented today, by making a website out of a single Java Applet?

    Hmm... How would links work in such a system?

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    This could be implemented today, by making a website out of a single Java Applet?

    No, it could not. As Applet still has many restrictions.
    Also Java JIT machine is build on different principles, ones similar to NET, as it brings many libraries in distribution (as they try to have them being fast).

    How would links work in such a system?

    I see no problems with links. Hypertext existed well before web, and exist today in many systems.

  • sam_sticklandsam_stickland

    No, it could not. As Applet still has many restrictions.

    It's been a long time since I tried to write Java Applets. Looking at it again it seems the main problematic restriction being that they can't load classes at runtime? I think the other applet restrictions that exist would still be necessary security measures in your vision?

    How would links work in such a system?

    I see no problems with links. Hypertext existed well before web, and exist today in many systems.

    My thinking wasn't full formed. I meant that there would need to be a standard format for addressing resources, but that could of course still be URIs.

  • stoneystoney

    Java/C# are becoming more dynamic, but they are not truly dynamic languages. JavaScript is pretty dynamic, and it runs the fastest on the browsers. HTML yeah we need markup language. CSS yeah sophisticated styling was not part of HTML spec fuk. PHP programmers can rewrite a whole new website without reusing any component, and that's great.

    Yeah it's complex and that's the way it is, and it will get more complex as web is gonna do more work.

  • sam_sticklandsam_stickland

    @stonebat Java isn't dynamically typed, but other dynamically typed languages can be made to run on the JVM,

  • stoneystoney

    @sam_stickland JVM is the major bottleneck. The thing about Java... you know the bytecode loses all template meta information after compilation. JVM isn't really geared toward a web browser in mind. JVM is taking over the server side, but Applet is dead. Write Once Run Anywhere is dead. Oracle's JVM, IBM's JVM, Google's JVM, etc. JavaScript (JS) isn't just dynamically typed language. It's interpreted on the fly. No compilation required. JS engine has been running on a web browser since JS inception, and it runs darn fast and faster. As Google saying, we need all of JS, C, Java, and Python. Sure add HTML5, CSS3, PHP to the list. That's the way it is, and it will be for very long time. I know it sounds braindead. But it's too late.

  • Mark_the_HarpMark_the_Harp

    @stonebat I like your description. It reminds me of an old house with lots of bits tacked on over the years, so we have a sort of big amorphous place that works - and if I get Vitaliy right he wants to demolish and rebuild a new house which is efficiently designed and lean 'n' mean.

  • stoneystoney

    @mark_the_harp The programming languages are like human languages. They are not perfect. They adapt. They evolve. They age. Eventually they die as new languages emerge. It's because we the human are behind the languages. As Cobol programmers begin to fade away, of course Cobol language starts dying.

    Currently we are entering dark age for programming languages. We won't see new language that becomes super popular like JS, C, Java, and Python in a long time. Also HTML and CSS.

  • stoneystoney

    A rhetorical question...

    Do you really wanna live in a world that can replace all those idiotic technologies with such perfect technologies? What if it's just more than the technologies? Achieving perfection in every levels. Kill the impefection.

    Kinda scary.

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    @stonebat

    The thing about Java... you know the bytecode loses all template meta information after compilation.

    I really do not understand a heck here.

    JavaScript (JS) isn't just dynamically typed language. It's interpreted on the fly.

    I really suggest to see implementation in any modern browser. Plus you mixed completely unmixable things, one of them is even not true.

    @Mark_the_Harp

    and if I get Vitaliy right he wants to demolish and rebuild a new house which is efficiently designed and lean 'n' mean.

    I really want to remove really dangerous house.

    @stonebat

    I am not talking about perfection. I am talking about efficiently using resources.

  • stoneystoney

    The thing about Java... I meant Java doesn't retain dynamic template typing information unlike C++ template. That was a big bummer to many Java developers who had high hope on Java genetics feature. It's basically compilation type checking.

    JS interpretation... I meant it doesn't require prior compilation to native binary or bytecode before loading to the browser. Actual compilation happens in the browser's JS engine on the fly.

    I don't know. I stopped thinking about why the things are the way they are. Nothing but adapting.

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    The thing about Java... I meant Java doesn't retain dynamic template typing information unlike C++ template. That was a big bummer to many Java developers who had high hope on Java genetics feature. It's basically compilation type checking.

    You mean generics? it is not really related to VM and byte code, but more to language implementation. And if you ask me, generics are way overrated.

    I meant it doesn't require prior compilation to native binary or bytecode before loading to the browser. Actual compilation happens in the browser's JS engine on the fly.

    It makes no difference.

    I don't know. I stopped thinking about why the things are the way they are. Nothing but adapting.

    It is bad habit :-)

  • stoneystoney
    It makes no difference.

    I think it makes a big difference... but let's agree to disagree.

    It is bad habit :-)

    You can adapt, reinvent, or give up.

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    I think it makes a big difference... but let's agree to disagree.

    Looking at any real applications I know it makes zero practical difference.
    Except you won't need people with only expertise being JS.

  • stoneystoney

    See what happens to Java Applet. Gotta sign the bytecode. Then how are you going to debug on the browser side?

    Since JS engine in the browser compiles the JS source file, it makes the debugging much easier. Literally you can do the line by line debugging from the browser. While debugging, you can change font, style, value, etc.

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    See what happens to Java Applet. Gotta sign the bytecode.

    Signing have no relation to the problem.
    If you are so afraid, any decent IDE could automatically sign package during build.

    Then how are you going to debug on the browser side?

    Very easy.

  • stoneystoney

    Ok. You build your web technology. Release it. I will try to adapt :)

    If it sucks, get earful of my ranting.

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    Some details about most popular VM.

  • stoneystoney

    Android VM? Great. I will check it out.

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