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BlackMagic: Official $2,995 raw cinema camera topic
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  • rsquiresrsquires

    I can't understand why people are saying they will be disappointed with a RAW workflow. For most of the stuff I have ever done ( I work in TV as a motion designer) it is very short form and I more often than not will do a colour grade to tape or now file of the rushes from a shoot. This is pretty much the traditional way of working going back to when I used to shoot on film and then telecine to tape. You always did a one light transfer or graded your rushes before the tape got ingested for editing. I see it as a way to sell more Da Vinci's ha ha! For greenscreen work this will be fantastic, to have the uncompressed data raw from the sensor for this price is a dream come true. Of course for a faster turnaround I suspect people would go with Pro Res or DNXHD. This is great too as you just drop it onto the timeline and away you go. In this respect I would expect footage to be more "baked in" in terms of look, but still be pretty good when grading in comparison to the dog that is h264. The 2 workflows are very different and yes people might be surprised by a raw workflow but I for one don't think it's an issue. What I'd like to see is whether you can change the flavour of ProRes in camera. This would be hugely helpful in making those SSD's last much longer in terms of how much you can write to them. @johnbrawley maybe you could whisper in Blackmagics ear to have this option. It would seem sensible to have a few options for ProRes shooting, considering the market this camera is aimed at.

  • kholikholi

    I dig you guys' attitude about shooting ProRes in the interim. Enough willpower and gusto you can pick it up. Maybe some of you will actually become colorists. =D

  • AriaAria

    Regarding the new Blackmagic Cam, the naysayers are really killing me. IMO the idea that users won't know what they're getting into is preposterous!!! Yes there will be a new work flow to adapt to, but was it any different for new adopters of the RED Scarlet or even the 5DmkII. Anytime we're talking about a new acquisition device there will be new things to adjust to. I mean come on, this is the site where people are creating new Hack Patches for the GH2 every day!!! That certainly meant Learning new things about the Hack Functions, Testing and upgrades in SD cards and a new understanding of what you could do with the files recorded. Yes SSD, RAW, SDI, Thunderbolt and the many other new aspects of this cam will present a different set of requirements, and learning its limitations, but that's going to be pretty apparent to anyone who researches and buys this camera. Do you suppose that they would buy it somehow missing all these discussions about the new aspects of this camera? It's not a DSLR and I doubt anyone actually believes it is.

    I think this is a new vista for many who have been looking to get a certain set of features from DSLR's and have been somewhat disappointed. The GH2, 5Dmk3 and D800 aren't obsolete because of this camera, but there is now a VERY compelling alternative to those cameras at this price range. Now there will be interesting discussions about how people will end up actually using this camera.

    Do you go for this verses an FS100? Do you buy into this system assuming that there will be further development that bring new features closer to those of the Super35 cams? Is there any overlap with how people use DSLR's or Super35's now or is it in a class by itself? How will the images it produces compare with everything else and what new possibilities will exist with the RAW capabilities? Very interesting times. It's the 1st of a new class of camera. It's accessible to many more people and i'm excited about it. Instead of just renting some expensive exotic cam, A person can own and live with this camera and fully explore it's capabilities and master it's strengths.

  • RobertoRoberto

    @rsquires Re exaggerated RAW problems: Ditto!!

    I have spent sometimes days on end putting together 27-second TV commercials using as little as 100 ft of film. If you do shoots like this you get the talent and crew to a location, make up and hair done, car polished, you wait for the sunset to get just right...

    And then do you decide to shoot just ProRes when you have the RAW option? For maybe 5 minutes' rushes?

    I've worked on feature narratives where we get just one scene done in a day.

    We don't all keep a camera rolling throughout a car race or wedding. Isn't the choice - as to whether or not we have the storage space or are prepared to commit to a RAW work flow - surely a personal matter, largely determined by arithmetic? The BMC is good enough to use as an A-camera, for some, cheap enough to use as a crash camera!

    Also, the price of terabytes and CPU cycles are not set to go up anytime soon; rather down over time. Black Magic are looking to the future.

  • Chaos123xChaos123x

    From what I hear most of the internal components are from Olympus.

    But not the censor. The censor is a CMOS designed for outerspace.

    Some think it is from FairChild.

  • vladnikvladnik

    FairChild is company who makes ccd an cmos sensors for army and NASA... they made sensor for Hubble Space telescope and Cassini ... they use something what they call sensor thermoelectric cooling... and BMD guys mention that their sensor are refrigerated...

  • johnbrawleyjohnbrawley

    @vladnik They use PELTIER cooling. Just like an Alexa. Not anything new there....

  • vladnikvladnik

    yes but for that price tag its revolutionary..... i used that as a proof that BMD maybe use FairChild sensor...

  • Chaos123xChaos123x

    If you watch all the Viemo and Youtube interview videos you will catch a few people saying the sensor was designed for space/science. Other interviews they state that it is refridgerated.

    People who have tested the camera said the internals are from Olympus but not the sensor.

    Can anyone find a Fairchild chip that matches the Cinema Cameras specs?

  • BuellerBueller

    Here is a "raw" still from Brawley's shoot with the Make-up Girl. (Really just an 8 bit jpg)

    leah_1-20-2.jpg
    1920 x 1080 - 1M
  • BuellerBueller

    And then here it is with a quick primary grade.

    leah_1-20-2CC.jpg
    1920 x 1080 - 444K
  • CRFilmsCRFilms

    Yes, the most important thing of the BMD cam is it finally moves the goal posts of 2k down to where they should be, price wise. The GH1/GH2 has already moved the goal posts in terms of price vs performance, but only we know about it or only we acknowledge it. All the other big camera makers either don't see it or are deliberately ignoring it.

    You can't ignore Black Magic. It's still not as good as it could be, but finally something with better than Hacked GH2 performance for way less than $10k. And if that's not good enough....wait a bit, the KineRaw-S8 is coming out. It can use any lens from Super8m on up. It can do 4:3 HD anamorphic ratios and it could potentially cost under $2k....potentially. The biggest problem with the KineRaw is the S35 is first out, then possibly the S16, then finally the S8....could be a year before the S8 comes out. But it will be a year before I could afford the BMD, so I can wait for this:

  • Amadeus5D2Amadeus5D2

    @CRfilms

    I hate homepages with product announcement without product, so far many months ...coming soon....coming soon

    BM is doing a good job.

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

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  • kavadnikavadni

    I tried HFS+ .. paid for it .. and after a month of headaches .. it worked, unreliably and I had system crashes .. I Tried MacDrive .. it worked .. I emailed Paragon explained what was happening .. they gave me my money back said they were working to fix issues with windows 7.

    This is about 6 months ago, following purchase of hyperdeck shuttle

    I also tried a couple of linux utilities, could easily format and read .. all works under linux However I only had success (stability) when drives were formatted with macdrive, or formatted on a mac computer.

  • modernhumanmodernhuman

    The BMD is definitely an exciting camera, and my guess is BM are using this smaller sensor camera as a test for larger sensor, more full featured cameras. They also wanted to come in under the 5D MKIII, and the S35 and/or full frame versions (when they do surface) won't be that cheap, but hopefully under $5-6k.

    The crop factor and the battery options are the main reasons holding me back from getting this. If you're starting from scratch and add in battery power, SSDs, and an SDI converter, you're looking at over 4k and maybe around 5k. You have to also figure in the computer requirements for Resolve, which can be steep if you want good performance. Thunderbolt is only an option for a small amount of users, right now, if you're thinking of using Ultrascope. So upgrading to a serious rig for this camera could be closer to 10k. Of course, if you happen to already have that stuff laying around, this camera is a steal.

    I'm also waiting to see what Panasonic and Sony might have in the Fall. The reality is in the next 1-3 years there will be several cameras, definitely under 10k and some under 4-6k, that will shoot RAW with a large sensor, to SSDs or maybe XQD cards. It's not long now. Once RAW video becomes a consumer standard, like RAW stills, it won't be long before a lot of cameras are doing this. Very cool times.

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    Once RAW video becomes a consumer standard, like RAW stills, it won't be long before a lot of cameras are doing this. Very cool times.

    Yep, it'll happen much sooner than most think.
    I just hope that cameras won't use CinemaDNG. In reality we need compressed RAW support.
    If someone asked me, I'll offer to use H.264 with adjustable GOP and bit depth, with sequental frames (G, R, B).

    Like:

    Type:
    [x] Debayered
    [ ] Sequental GRB

    Bit depth:
    [x] Sensor original 12bit
    [ ] High definition 10bit
    [ ] Normal 8bit

    GOP:
    [ ] Intra frame
    [x] Use B frames
    1 [-------------x--------------] 60

  • alcomposeralcomposer

    Just thinking about this VK! Compressed RAW the way to go! (Even RED is doing it)

  • vladnikvladnik

    cineform is best bet for compressed RAW...

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    @vladnik

    cineform is best bet for compressed RAW...

    I highly doubt it.
    It uses almost same approach as RED, with simple intraframe wavelet compression. My undestanding is that they can't use any H.264 like approach due to patents. But it is not the case with big companies, who can use and change anything.

  • mo7iesmo7ies

    @vladnik +1 on Cineform! I used to own SI2K camera which recorded in Cineform RAW natively, and had absolutely no complaints! Cineform is an exceptionally high quality, robust codec for any type of video work. I think one of its strengths is low bandwidth: it records 2K RAW on a standard 5400 RPM HDD, easily. (Can you tell I am a Cineform fanboy?! :) )

    So my point is, if BM Cine Camera would employ Cineform RAW codec, which is 10 bit quality, you could probably record your 2.5K video on HDD, not SSD, on-board the camera. Plus of course all other benefits of Cineform as a super easy post-production workflow.

    BMCC in its current form available now: DNG: http://bhpho.to/HVpfYT BMCC with Cineform RAW: maybe if we ask the company, it'll come in 2013?

  • modernhumanmodernhuman

    @Vitaliy_Kiselev Around 2-3 years from now, I think there will be cameras with different RAW formats (compressed and uncompressed, 12 and 14-bit), compressed 10-bit formats (like ProRes), and web delivery formats like h.264, built in. The user will have a choice, in menu, much like they do with stills. This will allow the cameras to scale to any user's needs. But the technology is certainly there to make a sub $5k camera with S35, RAW, 1-60 (120?)FPS, decent audio, good build / screen, high dynamic range, in a small form factor. The only limit has been data bandwidth and CPU power. But now we have SSDs (QXD?) with high bandwidth transfer interfaces, and tons of CPU power... all on the cheap.

    The only real reason we don't have more cameras like the BMD is because most companies are still stuck on the idea that pro video cameras have to cost thousands... well because they shoot video and have tons of buttons, right? Times are changing and it's not long now, before professional video standards move down to the consumer.

    Canon was accidentally a pioneer in this with the MKII (large sensor, shallow dof), but now they've missed the boat and BMD is doing what Canon should have done (RAW). The 1Dc and C300-500 are stuck in traditional markets. I mean, what productions in Hollywood can't afford to rent a decent camera? If you have the budget to rent a C300 or 1Dc, you probably could shoot Epic or Alexa too. So unless the really small form factor is something you need, why wouldn't you shoot Alexa? To me under $5k is the sweet spot for 'everyone else'. Once you start going over $8k it makes less sense to use these 'low' high-end cameras and just use the best, like Alexa.

    Oh well, looking forward to the next few years. A time when even your grandma will be able to have a RAW workflow, seriously.

  • alcomposeralcomposer

    Sorry @Guys but have to say that of most people here- @VK knows what he is talking about. H264 is a super advanced codec... would be nice to see it used for more advanced things than just 'pixel smashing'. mmm.... H264RAW... has a nice sound...

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    Idea of my proposition is that it requires only slight change of existing H.264 blocks inside LSI and triple them. Such RAW approach coupled with CABAC, B frames, long GOP can allow you to have full RAW with very low bitrates. This also allow natively drop to 4:2:0 if you need it.

  • alcomposeralcomposer

    @modernhuman looks like camera companies are going to have to find something else but 'format' for new wars... Looking at audio world... Dynamic Range and the etherial 'quality' will be next.

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