Official Low GOP topic, series 5

Athiril

When I've been trying to fiddle around to make a good HBR patch and noticing what other patches do on HBR 25...

eg Flowmotion patch gets low bitrates on HBR 25p.. as do all other patches.. Flowmotion and others also crash on the death chart and detailed scenes, even though the bitrate isn't high.

From what I've been able to figure, you can have either a reasonably high bitrate (60mbps maybe a little higher) with modest frame sizes, or lower bitrate with large frame sizes (eg the GOP9 24p25p patch in the Hacks section) but not both or it'll simply crash on detail. HBR 30p users don't have the crashing problem at least and can go higher.

Though on the same settings HBR still gets compressed more and tends to need more extreme settings to get the rates up.

thougts2uk

why would you want to shoot HBR when you can get better quality by shooting 24H? is it only for 25p?

bkmcwd

Since I had stuck the confusedly wrong setting, I reuploaded the exact one to the third. :-) EDIT: I reuploaded revised edition to the 4th again. http://www.personal-view.com/talks/discussion/comment/45517#Comment_45517

Meierhans

You will run into flickering problems with some light sources in PAL countries shooting 24p, no matter if you set shutter to 50. Its quite rare, but nice to have true 25p settings in backhand.

Athiril

Also 24p sucks and is too low to sustain the illusion of motion, I want to get away from 24p, 24 fps is for film double flashed at 48 fps, not for digital played back at 24 fps without frame interpolation.

Hence 25p.

Anyway the GOP table for 1080 50i is for HBR 25p, those settings are certainly not conducive for stability at higher rates.

Somebody get 25p right up there, please?

KeithLommel

@Athiril: If 24p is too slow to sustain illusion of motion, 25p is not much of an improvement. If realistic (as opposed to "filmic") motion is your goal, then 30p, or better yet, 50p or 60p should be your target.

@thougts2uk: Main reasons to use 25p instead of 24p are flicker issue under certain kinds of lighting in countries with 50Hz power, and because you need footage that is compatible with PAL broadcast standards.

driftwood

@bkmcwd Try and settle the b frames. Lift Encoder Setting 4 to 15 on 720p for example.

bkmcwd

@driftwood Thanks mate! I'll try it. :-)

VVV1151

Hi! Tell me, please, Is it possible to combine reAQuainted_AQ3 + any INTRA GOP for 25P setting without matrix? With 1.1 firmware + 3.64 PTool 20022012. For me - reAQuainted very best! Now i use FW 1.0 + reAQuainted setting.

driftwood

@VVV1151 Run ptools from a fresh directory containing a copy of both orion and reaquainted settings, the new firmware v1.11 and of course ptools 3.64d 200212.

Then open Orion followed immediately by opening reaquainted and then checkbox the scaling matrix next to the mode you want to apply to ( ie p24, 1080i, 720).

Reaquainted will then use Orion's matrices if youve checked them because they were the previously loaded settings.

bkmcwd

@ Silent users of my "settings" :-)

I improved a few in order to stabilize "GOP3ZILLA" more again.

Of course, this is the setting focused on image quality with LARGE I-FRAME SIZE except 60p and 50p.

Special thanks to @cbrandin and @driftwood!

NOTE:

*24H mode is high quality 3GOP setting with mega size I-frame.

*24L mode is for 24p80%(30p).

*In camera playback is available.

*EX Tele works.

*Spanning in 24H, 24L, maybe in FSH, HBR, and SH with SanDisk 95MB/s 64GB SDXC Card.(In my death chart test,24p,25p,50i,50p is spanning in ISO12800 repeatedly. 30p,60i and 60p is sometimes.)

UPDATE(2012.Mar.13th):

I release the newest "GOP3ZILLA_V2.0" setting. http://www.personal-view.com/talks/discussion/comment/47599#Comment_47599

driftwood

@bkmcwd Nice one. Thanks for this great setting. I urge people to try out bkmcwd's settings theyre very good and the best i frames out there.

Stray

Did some shots tonight for a cheap and cheerful comping project with GOP3ZILLA, figured there just aren't enough examples/love for @bkmcwd fantastic settings. So heres one of the shots. Weird subject matter I know, but it shows the detail/noise etc. The clip itself only averages around 70Mbps but still looks fine. No CC, no denoising, just the raw output (downloadable). ISO 640 with just a single daylight bulb for lighting. As ever with vimeo, download the file for a 'proper' look, I uploaded the raw mts file.

I intend to get round to creating a proper series of shots with these settings in the next couple of weeks.

flaschus

HEY!

y does 60p keep shirking out?

GOP3zilla 1.12 1080/24p.... b pictoris' 720/60p.... both with driftwood DARKMATTER v3 matrix.. and MJPEG 6fps lapser mode

kino.

proaudio4

Looks really clean @Stray.

Nice work @bkmcwd

bkmcwd

@driftwood Thanks mate!

This set is unrealizable without the advice from you as always stated. :-) Although I would like to improve more except 24p, it seems to be difficult to use big frame size more in 3GOP of 60i/HBR.

@Stray Thank you for good footage! :-)

"The clip itself only averages around 70Mbps but still looks fine."

Since it is prearranged low good qp, 13-17, I am satisfactory.

@flaschus Hi!

Since I myself do not use at all about 60p, it is the most alluring portion. Therefore, your proposal is very interesting. In addition, since I do not understand the difference in a matrix at all, I am interested also in it.

@proaudio4 Thanks always, mate! :-)

LittleD

Dumbass question: Why mouvement seems to differ with low gop? My imagination? Less decoding so more fluid on a log? Less spatial and temporal compression?

Thx.

artiswar

@LittleD Low GOP has less compression. Traditionally, the GH2 with a higher GOP will capture one I frame. This frame is a pixel-for-pixel representation of what is on the sensor. As the GOP increases, the codec adds more predictive frames based on the I frame. These predictive frames can get mushy and the movement takes a hit.

Here's a video from @driftwood himself that shows really well the difference. Keep an eye on the keyboard keys.

flaschus

Hey bkmcwd!

whats happnin,, ya i will keep working on trying to get it so it does not crash in 60p..

tho the footage that doesnt crash makes me seriously think about flipping back to 60p world...

HOW CAN THAT PATCH STOP CRASHING IN 60p?!

Arghhh.... my last ditch is flipping to 15gop 60p... driftwoods orion v4b, see if that wants to play nice...

also, if you get a chance to try that patch out, you will notice the 24p looks different.. at least to me;

when I am cutting footage together with these 'orion' and 'dark matter' matrixes plugged into say lpwell's flomotion or ur gop3zilla it really cleans up, or should i say, smooths down the 'feel' of the picture..

I read the wiki explaining matrices only to become more curious and realize what an upside down world this is..

but yea, it looks just enough different... load in that dark matter or orion matrix 4 warp speed.

bkmcwd

@flaschus Hi!

"HOW CAN THAT PATCH STOP CRASHING IN 60p?!"

Since I do not use 60p, I am making 60i and HBR priority. If it is only the purpose to stabilize 60p, and GOP_related, Encoder settings, and quantizer are used, it will be possible to make a safe set. However, since it will not become good, I am making a certain amount of compromise.

Since I do not have time, the effect to my set of driftwood's matrixes has not been tried, but it is interesting. Thanks! :-)

flaschus

@bkmcwd.... hey homie!

I read someone else having my same problem with 60p; the quantizer for 720 modes had to be flipped to 4 instead of 16, an no crashes since... so I suppose I can call it stable..

Yesterday I went and tested out your new gop3zilla 1.12 with the orion matrix,,,uploaded set if anyone else is interested.

I thought that it looked pretty sweet!

o yeah, I read somewhere u were working on a 6gop set? is there a truth to this?

thanks 4 the hookups

jazzwalker

@flaschus Is the patch more for the "film" look and motion?

bkmcwd

@flaschus Thanks mate. :-)

"the quantizer for 720 modes had to be flipped to 4 instead of 16, an no crashes since... so I suppose I can call it stable.."

I think that it is necessary not only to set Q to 4, but to change other parameters. How is it?

"gop3zilla 1.12 with the orion matrix"

I will try later, thanks. And, 6GOP set is done to the half.

bkmcwd

@ Silent users of my "settings" :-)

I release the newest "natural_v1.11" setting. When testing the combination of tens patterns, the almost same setting as GOP3ZILLA was stabilized most. My "natural" is the setting which realizes high definition by the mean bit rate.

Of course, this is also the setting focused on image quality with LARGE I-FRAME SIZE except 60p and 50p.

Special thanks to @cbrandin and @driftwood!

NOTE:

*24H mode is high quality 3GOP setting with mega size I-frame.

*24L mode is for 24p80%(30p).

*In camera playback is available.

*EX Tele works.

*Spanning in 24H, 24L, maybe in FSH, HBR, and SH with SanDisk 95MB/s 64GB SDXC Card.(In my death chart test,24p,25p,30p,50i,50p is spanning in ISO12800 repeatedly. 60i and 60p is sometimes.)

marie

Is there a reason why none of the new patches contains anamorphic settings in mjpeg mode ?

Howdy, Stranger!

Categories

Tags in Topic

Top Posters