@Vitaliy ....first, V please give link to article so things can be read within their context. Second, all of the "isms" , in their pure form, have failed humanity. In the final result, if left to their own devices, they all want to take away personal freedom and end in the same totalitarian state. Capitalism, socialism, communism ...they're all the same, because they divide the population into feudal/overlord. And it's going to get worse, because , whether it's the capitalist elites or the socialist elites...they'll own the robotic means of production, which will leave people with little more than crumbs. The difference between a so-called capitalist state control system like america, which moves in invisible increments to steal accumulated wealth, and a communist state control system like north korea, which takes all wealth by force, is in america the people still have the guns, so the capitalist tread softly. In north korea they just disappear the misfits into their gulags. That's why the socialist/leftist forces in america want our guns. It's really a new paradigm, no longer right vs left, but authoritarian vs libertarian, because all extant political systems seek accumulated authority, which they never plan on relinquishing, and authority equals wealth.

@kurth

Some people do not understand why we have economic/political posts here. They are here not to fight for your views and opinions. They are to share knowledge. If it makes you to read book or two we already won.

Capitalism, socialism, communism ...they're all the same, because they divide the population into feudal/overlord.

Your statement is wrong, this is first. As you literally do not understand definition of words you are using.

Second, I think you love anarchism. This is utopia.

The difference between a so-called capitalist state control system like america, which moves in invisible increments to steal accumulated wealth, and a communist state control system like north korea, which takes all wealth by force, is in america the people still have the guns, so the capitalist tread softly. In north korea they just disappear the misfits into their gulags.

Your problem is that you think that this thoughts and statements are original and have value. They don't. I many times asked you to rise your opinion to knowledge and you constantly want to lower knowledge to opinion.

@matt_gh2

Austrian school of thought can be found at mises.org (free atticles and books I believe on topic).

I do not know any "Austrian school of thought". So called Austrian economic school is small tool used by capitalists to make it look like imperialism exist not due economic laws under capitalism, but due some complicated plot by some corrupt elites. And all we need is to move to "true free market". This is just non scientific bullshit.

@kurth

Your problem that you defined in your head some wrong definitions of "knowledge", "ideologue" and "right". My position is to stay on materialistic and scientific point of view, not about being abstractly right.
Your position now - "I also have opinion! I think 2x2 equals 10!". After this you somehow internally understand that this is not right, but blame me or other people with other views.

This thing changes as you read and think more and understand that your "original opinion" has no real value for long time (or never had). Do not worry, this happens to everyone.

P.S. I removed personal attack part. Do not go here.

I understand perfectly well the definitions of capitalism, communism, and socialism. I read more than my share of marx and trotsky, thank you. But the flaw in your logic is that you're emotionally attached, thereby making any rational discussion impossible.

May be you missed core things accidently or share was very little?

Also missing seems to be understanding of feudalism and who feudal is. As well as many works about individual freedom and its limits in society.

I use emotions in my replies to make them more easy to understand and more interesting to people :-) As I see from PM and email feedback - it works good.

I can say the same of you. Knowledge isn't graphs designed to exploit a particular point of view.

You can't, sadly. And you also very much hate any graphs and charts.

I much better prefer to move to things you can share, like your life experience. Or things you propose to make capitalism better or practically implement anarchism.

Graphs are simplistic visual aids, easily exploited propaganda used by either side of an argument, just like quotes taken out of context. All the "isms" are failing.

I think deep in the heart you are subjective idealist, solipsist even. As only with such foundation you can have such thoughts.

And anarchism won't have to be implemented, it will be what's left after the war.

It is very constructive way to implement something. Unfortunately it is also utopian view, as none in human history shows that after any even very hard wars and devastation you have anarchism. So, it is unscientific, utopia.

And feudalism, like everything else, is measured in degrees.

You mean that everything can be measured in alcohol? :-)

I'm particularly found of man vs the state by spencer and the law by bastiat. On our dwindling freedoms and the growing threat of the state, are any more books required ?

Well, I even did not asked for any books. Just about any real way to implement anarchism.

not true except for the last few centuries because there was always a clear victor, and spoils to be shared, except of course where today you have clear anarchy in a fanatical form in iraq and parts of Syria

OK, lets now understand your definition of anarchism. And that exact part of anarchism you belong?

although you appear to always associate "anarchy" with the modern negative connotation, it really means self-governing w/o a state

For it not to have negative connotation it must be more progressive comparing to any hierarchical states. And it seems that you want to provide examples of devastation and ruling of armed gangs as progressive state.

A libertarian is a type of anarchist, because they want the least amount of state possible w/o ensuing chaos.

Such thing as libertarian outside of "isms" does not exist. He is just word juggler in this case.
Example here is on first post - Austrian schools guys are utopian capitalists or as I call them - lovers of utopian masochism capitalism.

And contrary to that idea, is a socialist, who wants the state to assume paramount control of everything from birth to death.

And this is just wrong. This is how Austrian guys paint any socialists, btw, so as any capitalist want them to look like.

Anarchist rightly believe that whichever authority controls the state, it will hoard all power unto itself.

And this is unscientific. Monarchs and their bureaucrat never could go against interests of all feudals, same is true for any rulers in capitalism - they always just implemented interests of ruling class. It is same with any real "ism" that existed on the planet.

really I offered north korea as a perfect example of their elites destroying their own population

I am sure they also eat babies for lunch. :-)

Why don't you tell us about real human capitalists and real life of people in South Africa and North Africa, Brazil, Thailand, Malasia and Indonesia? As I know and have some contact in this countries. Or all this horribly exploited millions of poor people living in slums are just misfits, wrong guys? Waste material of real capitalism?

Statistics now point to americans paying over 50% of their earnings as taxes. Is that socialism now ?

No, it is not socialism, it is imperialism, highest state of capitalism. And will remain such even if they will pay 80% or 90%. Wealth redistribution under capitalism does not make any difference.

read a history of the anarchist movement since the mid19th century. The word libertarian was invented by an anarchist in the 19th century.

I just looked as you it used above. And showed that it is completely meaningless.

Of course I know some history of anarchists, but no one really took them very seriously ever as I know.

You can't take seriously position that anarchism will form somehow as bunch of criminal gangs who will rule remains of population after some global war. It is just fantasy and utopia. Does not touch serious people. Early anarchists, btw did not share your approach :-)

the materialist and scientific point of view fails when it comes to this kind of intangible. It can provide counter-intuitive knowledge, and tell us what obviously will not work, but it cannot tell us what will work. For that we need a value judgement derived from history and our current context.

It is some sort of idealistic thing in your head, but wrongly expressed, I think. :-)

We do know some things that do work - the New Deal-Keynesian economic model worked quite well until the ruling class broke it with cultural divisions. Back in the 1970's, I was able to support my family on a single income with a working-class job. That is not possible today.

Well, in 30s New Deal approach mostly failed, despite being simple as hell - trying to deal with usual capitalist crisis by adding few manual controls and printing money. Things started to move really only in 1940 and 1941.

In 70s you lived good not because of some Keynesian ideas and measures, but because it was less people and much more energy, land and resources per each.

Well the point of Capitalism is not equality but access to equality. When a Walmart makes it impossible for a small retailer to compete its actually for the good of the general population. BUT there must be equality of opportunity for a small retailer to compete...this happens if there is no government getting in the way in terms of regulations, employer healthcare, minimum wage etc....

Most fun thing here is that economists in 19th century and in early 20th already proved that it is not the case and never was. Small manufacturer as small retailer can not compete with large not due to "state", but due economic laws working in capitalism.

So widespread resurgence of views that had been dead in the grave (and for a reason, capitalists just used dead bodies during most tough times) means big issues with basics of economics education.

Idea to avoid mentioning obvious facts that state is always of class origin and is controlled by ruling class can lead to such strange views. If you go back to scientific, normal view all will become clear and simple. As some members of the class become more powerful (they win in competition) they are able to slightly tilt the table and help themselves even more.

Due to huge holes in education some can propose to fix it by replacing this powerful guys (fighters with "oligarchy state"), not understanding that it is completely pointless, it'll be just other guys in very short time. Another propose to eliminate government/state as a whole. Just do it. Somehow. Better via global war. And prosperity will follow. And classes do not exist, it was all bad state.

Capitalism is not equality of wealth, its equality of access to feed at the same trough or market as any big player....which is actually a fact if gov don't make it not so.

No, wrong. It is again Austrian like utopian view.

Its funny no one would say hey our political system is 20% Dictatorship or 20% Communist. But we constantly label A system that simply is not Capitalism, Capitalism! Its true we have like 70% (a random stat) Capitalism in most western worlds, i.e. we have a degree of Capitalism mixed with a degree of socialism. Governments not getting involved in the free market is not some crazy utopian idea....it is to some degree done all over the world....and the more it is...the better the and richer the society is...just like the more communist a countries ideas become the poorer it gets. i.e. Americas economy has sucked cause of Socialist planning even though it is not Socialist.

Capitalism might be almost impossible to be pure but at least you go in the direct of good as much as you can...

Actually it's closer to right about apple and wrong about facebook. Apple didn't have the cia backing their early development, and until the iphone , were virtually ignored compared to microsoft. But in fact most of what we think of as innovative silicone valley was dept of defense funded from the start, and even apple rode the government research bandwagon, utilizing gov-funded tech. It's just more history of how the capital"ISM' model is a charade, more or less the same since the 19th century robberbarons, making it little different that the other "ISMS" in their (de)functionality.

The truth about capitalism, is it's supported by citizens tax dollars and war loot, today in the form of stolen resources, phony economics and banks gambling investors dollars and laundering drug profits.

And for socialism and communism...well look around. Venezuela appears to be starving to death and the others are even in worse shape, like north korea , a socialist state run by madmen. Of course true believers say their failures are a conspiracy, although cuba survived and prospered in it's fashion, having the best medicine and education in latin america. If there exists some pure model of socialism somewhere on paper, when it is put into practice, it fails. Why ? ...because elites take control , just like in all the other "isms". The chinese have become the biggest capitalist with only the model of ownership changing. What's the difference between the elites there and the elites here ?

...and everywhere every system degrading into authoritarianism, except in true believers heads , who think some marxist ideology will save us, like believing we'll go to heaven if we confess our sins !

north korea has china for it's trading partner but it spends all it's resources on the military , starving it's population so the elites can stay in power, a true totalitarian state. And china's elites are just as corrupt as any western capitalist...your metaphor makes no sense.

And maybe you don't know the history of how the cia backed facebook and google ...that's why it's good to "read and think" !

north korea has china for it's trading partner but it spends all it's resources on the military , starving it's population so the elites can stay in power, a true totalitarian state. And china's elites are just as corrupt as any western capitalist...your metaphor makes no sense.

Well, nope. China, for example took full part in all last rounds of assets blocking. Took part in restrictions of food supply also.

All further NK discussion (due to unacceptable quality) will be considered full offtopic here. As for any reader it is much more effective to go to nearest dump to read old US newpapers, not to read bad rephrase here.

And china's elites are just as corrupt as any western capitalist...your metaphor makes no sense.

Well, I told you to think about difference and provided hint by analogy, and you again missed the road.

And maybe you don't know the history of how the cia backed facebook and google ...that's why it's good to "read and think" !

I don't really know that to say, except that I do not care about CIA and such bullshit.