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Canon Cinema EOS C300 topic
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  • LPowellLPowell
    Love the Zacuto Wing Cage in the video. Gini, if you're watching, please take notes...

  • LPowellLPowell
    @bwhitz - "Because P and B frames are not "real" frames... An algorithm should not be deciding what changes in detail should be encoded or not."

    Actually, I think better detail interpolation is exactly what is needed to improve 24p motion picture codecs. The drawback to encoding each frame independently is that random discrepancies between high-contrast edge pixels create pulsating farkle effects when sharply detailed objects move slowly across static background scenery. To diminish these undesirable motion artifacts, the codec should attempt to preserve the continuity of edge details from frame-to-frame rather than encoding each frame in isolation. This would require more sophisticated inter-frame encoding rather than a high-bitrate intra-frame codec.
  • bwhitzbwhitz
    I agree 100% that it's better for detail. No question about that. It's just the motion rendering that looks bad. Inter-frame motion just gives the image that "flash animation" look where the image seems as if it's sliding around instead of moving and re-freshing like film would.

    I think the "pulsating farkle" is easily diminished with over-samplaling. I use to see this all the time when shooting on SD cameras and my XH-A1, where the pixel count on the sensor was the same as the recording size, but I've never run into it on a GH2 or 5D/7D (besides aliasing).

    Individual encoded frames and oversampling, are IMO, two of the most important aspects of the "film/cinematic" aesthetic for digital capture.
  • LPowellLPowell
    @bwhitz - "I think the "pulsating farkle" is easily diminished with over-sampling."

    Oversampling is effective when you can downsample in post, i.e. record in 3-5K resolution and downsample to 1080p. For native 1080p video recording, the only way to diminish farkling without degrading resolution is by inter-frame edge filtering. While an AVCHD IPB encoder is not sophisticated enough to do this systematically, you can tweak an adaptive encoder to approximate it by reducing bitrate in complex high-contrast regions.
  • bwhitzbwhitz
    @LPowell

    Yea, that's what I don't like about native sensors... luckily for the GH2 though... the image starts at 16mp and is properly down-sampled (binned I think?) to make a sharp and detailed image yet free of the nasty aliasing and farkling. At least I've never seen them... and I've shot city scape and such where they would have surly shown up if the sensor wasn't doing a proper down-sample.

    All being said though, I'm really happy with the GOP1 motion and detail it captures on the GH2. It's really a breakthrough in emulating the digital cinema look. Awesome stuff!
  • LPowellLPowell
    @bwhitz - "luckily for the GH2 though... the image starts at 16mp and is properly down-sampled to make a sharp and detailed image yet free of the nasty aliasing and farkling."

    This would be true if we were able to record the GH2's down-sampled RAW output before it was compressed into 8-bit 4:2:0 AVCHD (or HDMI output). Unfortunately, compressed 1080p recordings often show farkling on the edges of high-contrast moving objects, regardless of high bitrate or GOP-1 encoding.
  • bwhitzbwhitz
    Oh well... it's still a very nice output. Haven't had an issue with the farkling yet... if it's there, it's definitely better than native 1080p sensors. I used to see it all the time with my XH-A1... even when I wasn't pixel-peeping.
  • raoulraoul
    Wondering if there is a way to overcome the c300's internal codec limitations of 8bit 50mbps I wanted to know what comes out of the HD-SDI and found this:

    HD/SD SDI: Yes (with embedded audio);
    HD 4:2:2(YCbCr) 1920 x 1080: 60i/50i, 1280 x 720: 60p/50p;
    SD 4:2:2 (YCbCr) 640 x 480: 60i/50i
    http://www.canoncinemaeos.com/assets/downloads/cinemaeos.pdf (page 18)

    No 1080p output at any frame rate! So if you want to record and edit 24p 1080 you have quite a similar mess as with the gh2 which has been discussed at length at this forum.

    With the gh2 that's just a shortcomming on a $700 camera which is just a great camera but for that price you can't expect full pro features like on a pro cam 10 times the price.

    But a camera more than 20 times the price of a gh2 aimed at Hollywood without the option to record 24p 1080 externally via SDI? It's a strange, strange world.

  • bwhitzbwhitz
    So let me get this straight... Canon's "cinema camera" can only output 4:2:2 at 60i?

    Wow... they really need a third party to design and spec their cameras and just stick to manufacturing. This is just insane. You think with 2-3 years of design time, they could have developed a cinema codec that allows a truly variable frame-rate up to 96fps or something... This re-using of a $3000 camcorder codec in a $20k body is just ludicrous. They should have started from scratch to develop something like CanonRAW or not have done anything at all. All the C300 is doing is making people mad at Canon for being so narrow-sighted and arrogant. I even remember interviews with Shane Hurlbut explaining that he was telling Canon they needed a RAW-type codec if they want to enter the "real" digital cinema market. Are they just not listening to anyone?

    Rant over.
  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev
    @bwhitz

    How about keep discussion about C300, not GH2 or other HDSLRs?
  • bwhitzbwhitz
    @Vitaliy_Kiselev

    Sorry. It just slips out sometimes...

    (last part deleted)
  • alcomposeralcomposer
    @bwhitz I think that this is because these companies have a totally different idea about what makes a 'great' camera. This is why Japan has been working for 30 years making cameras that have CCD chips the size of pin heads- they have their own ideas... So in many ways they think- mmm RAW 4k? That sounds like lots of work for the end user... lets give them really high tech product that does all that work in camera!

    Its not that they don't listen- its just that they have different ideas... (after the C300 its pretty clear that they do! Obviously they don't think that RED using the Canon mount justifies any sort of competition- otherwise I am sure that they would not have licensed it to them!) (once again - please correct me if I am wrong)
  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev
    image

    Image from Vincent site.
    You can see sensor non-uniformity, horizontal banding, in other words.
  • jpbturbojpbturbo
    Those pictures are of the image being projected on a 20 foot screen at the colorist studio.
    The banding you see is from the camera used to take the picture of the screen, not from the C300.
  • FrankGlencairnFrankGlencairn
    Actually Shane Hurlbut and others helped to develop the C300.
    Which makes it even more strange, that there is no 24 SDI out.

    But I have no Idea how much influence they had on the final specs.

    The way it reads the sensor is very interesting though.
    As close to a Foveon or 3 chip as you can get with a CMOS camera.

    I realy like the dynamic range. Sitting in a car and shooting the interior and the dessert at noon at the same time, is nothing I would try to do with any other camera (well...maybe the Alexa).

    Interesting times ...

    Frank

  • mozesmozes
    Street price in the Netherlands is around the 12.000 euro.
    Now it gets interesting...................
    Lets see when they are available what is happening ....
  • mozesmozes
    Canon C300 PL S35 EOS Cinema Camera (On sale)
    15.458,10 EUR
    (Net: 12.990,00 EUR)
    http://www.marcotec-shop.de/en/products/cat_480/detail_4024.htm
  • ClermondClermond
    1 € = 1,31 USD means incl. VAT it's still over 20k USD
  • nomadnomad
    Everything is more expensive in the EU. It'll be rather 1:1 in U$.

    Two remarks:

    You can put proper 24p inside a 59.97i signal and easily decode that, if it's a proper 2:3 pulldown (preferably flagged). The GH2 is just not doing it right, doesn't mean that the C300 is doing the same.
    What concerns me more is this: they don't mention if SDI out is 8 or 10 bit!

    @FrankGlencairn: you can shoot that situation in HDRx mode on a RED too.
  • mozesmozes
    A 30 minute short film sponsored by Canon and shot on the Canon C300 and 5D Mark II, When You Find Me premiered on YouTube this week and will reportedly go offline tomorrow morning,,

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

  • Mr_MooreMr_Moore

    Now, that is a kick-ass accent!

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    C300 Best Practices Guide

    http://www.learn.usa.canon.com/app/pdfs/white_papers/EOS_C300_Best_Practices_Canon_USA.pdf

  • rcchongrcchong

    It's my first post so first and foremost thank Mr Kiselev and all others for making all this happening ! really!

    just want to share link about c300 "Understanding the C300" http://carousel.hu/c300/

    to me it 1.Cleanly explain about 4k sensor --> 1080 2.grains between mpeg2 and h264 3.last is the 4:4:4 vs 4:2:2 vs 4:2:0 compare.

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