@EOSHD

Kind of strange to read this from you.
First chart is made by Obama goverment to force average people to make wrong conclusion.
Second chart is here to clearly say that this is not Obama or Bush problem.
I already wrote what this is the same as making scratch on painting near your seat responsible for the fact what you are heading directly to the ground :-)

@Vitaliy
In your estimation, what is the cause of the trendline in the second chart?

@Vitaliy
errr...yes of course. But there are many pet theories about why money flowing to debt is decreasing. Anyway, the second chart is interesting, here's a blog on it, some of the comments are interesting -- some suggest the chart shows a false cause and effect relationship between debt and GDP, in other words, just because the rooster crows in the morning, doesn't mean he caused the sun to rise. http://econospeak.blogspot.com/2009/09/dimiinishing-returns-for-each-dollar-of.html

@Vitaliy
>>>Diminishing returns correlate quite good with problems in real economy.>>>>>

But the point in that blog is that a chart can also show the correlation between the sun rising and the crowing of a rooster. That's one of the problems with putting up a chart and saying it explains everything.

<<<<The more problems you have, the more people become unqualified for any serious work (as no actual learning happens in real plants and firms) and the more you need to invest to get any progress. And as each investment dollar could go to virtual economy with good profits and to real economy with small or negative profits problems become even worse. <<<<<<br />
I agree, very sad. (Sad that I think it's true, not that I'm agreeing with you :) )

A lot more wishful thinking here, Vitaliy, but let's see where everything stands in a couple of years. I'll take our embarrassing mess of a government over most others... And very thankful to be surrounded by free minds who just might be able to continue to help.

@EOSHD. Nice, post Andrew.

@cosimo_bullo

I am expressing my personal view that is based on facts and theories that I know.
Nothing gleeful about it.

@Vitaliy
>>>Don't see any real point.
I understand that it is easy to believe in fairy tales. You can see very good correlation to real life.>>>>
The point is a single chart as an KISS explanation can be misleading.

<<<<<As for this chart, it expains 100x more than all this who-is-reponsible-for-more-spending bullshit, made to distract average Joe.<<<<br />
assigning Responsibilty for the deficit isn't just opium for the average Joe, the politics determine a lot of social policy used to address the problems. We have two competing ideologies in America with two totally different approaches -- one side thinks deregulation and lower taxes are the solution, the other side thinks infrastructure investment, more taxes, and managed capitalism is the way to go. It makes a difference which course the country takes. Figuring out what and who got America in this mess can point the way out.

>>>As I already said, no good exit strategy can be made, any solution will lead to worse life.
But best solution, most probably, will lead to terrible life in short term with quite acceptable life in the longer term>>>>>

The way things look now, I agree 100%.

@Vitaliy,
<<<Sadly with same sponsors and owners :-) So, I call them "competing" idealogies. <<<<br />
You got me there :(
And it's going to get worse since our Supreme Court thinks people and Corporations are the same thing. They're so wrong, people are the things that serve corporations.

They have the rights of a person but feel few of the consequences. If a 'natural person' knowingly risks another's life for financial gain, and it leads to a fatality, they're in big trouble. Same if they defraud a hundred people to make a fortune. Never seen a corp get sent away for 20-to-life, though...

@madact
<<<<<They have the rights of a person but feel few of the consequences. If a 'natural person' knowingly risks another's life for financial gain, and it leads to a fatality, they're in big trouble. Same if they defraud a hundred people to make a fortune. Never seen a corp get sent away for 20-to-life, though... <<<<<<br />
Correct, they don't get 20 to life, but they do get a government bailout.

Capitalism is deeply flawed system.

Like all systems with a high level of complexity you get chaos. It's entropy. You can't stop it.

Solution is to split system up into smaller simple ones. When one fails it doesn't bring the others down with it or start a chain of chaos that effects the whole world. Like chopping the ropes on that cartoon above.

Main problem at the moment is that private companies are growing too large and too powerful, as a result people are too dependant on them.

The banks are already at Skynet levels of problematic evilness.

HSBC made $11bn profit last year and $11.5bn profit this year. Result for staff? 30,000 fired. 10% of entire workforce dispensed with in drive to find $3-4bn more profit next year. That's capitalism at it's finest - 30,000 lives ruined because $11.5bn profit isn't quite enough.

A complete lack of social responsibility or care for those responsible for the profits.... Us.

Capitalism was created to serve us, instead we are serving 'it' to the benefit of fat men on yachts everywhere and to the misery of billions of normal people. In this system, normal people are essentially slaves.

@EOSHD

"HSBC made $11bn profit last year and $11.5bn profit this year. Result for staff? 30,000 fired. 10% of entire workforce dispensed with in drive to find $3-4bn more profit next year. That's capitalism at it's finest - 30,000 lives ruined because $11.5bn profit isn't quite enough."

They sold their banks in the US. They didn't close them. They found that their banks in Asia are more profitable. The 11bn dollar figure is their worldwide profit.