Matt, thanks for the input. I actually do that on some monitors. Don't take this the wrong way but I work work with footage, from different cameras, everyday. Been doing it for years. I know what 24p looks like. I'm not here to debate that in any way. I, and a few others, believe there is something a bit off with this particular camera. That's all. No big deal. It's a consumer product. What do you expect?

I've been editing a civil war documentary on and off for a company over the last year or so. They started out with Canon xha1 cameras, I believe. The project was already picked up and just needed to be finished. Three quarters of the way through they had purchased a few GH2s and started using them as well. Now, battle scenes have a lot of movement. 24p looks pretty bad in that scenario anyway but the GH2 footage was dreadful. Actually to the point of one of the executives saying that he thought he was going to have a seizure. This was on a state of the art projection system, by the way. You could clearly see the difference. They came back to edit the footage and we decided to take all the GH2 stuff out. Next showing went off without a single comment and everyone was pleased. Except for the filmmakers who lost a lot of good scenes. Now, I know I didn't put one piece of technical information in this story but that's the way it went down. There was no comparison between the two when you saw it projected.

I have no faith in the GH2 as is. I do have faith in the incredibly smart people working to hack it. From what I have seen, I do believe you could shoot and sell a movie with this camera. You would have to keep motion to a minimum compared to most others. Like I said earlier, most of the footage people are drooling over are static shots. They look great. Just not going to cut it in real business of selling your movie if it has a lot of movement, that is.

Realistically, I doesn't bug me that much. I'm just another cheapskate looking for an inexpensive movie camera. But, I love the idea of the hack. If there is no way to overcome the look of the motion then I'll just pitch it and move on. Already did that with my first GH2. Just picked up another to see how the hack might affect it. So, sorry to disagree and I appreciate your help.

@Dalefpf

I hear what you're saying. I thought the motion of the GH2's 24p mode was poor from the start, and that comment in the manual about "after-images" was just weird. My first impression was that the LCD and the footage both looked sort-of like old silent film.

Before you give up on the camera completely, can you try one more test? Shoot something using the 80% speed mode, which will give you a true 30 fps recording. Conform it up to 30 fps in your editing software and let us know if you still see the weird judder.

Also, a reminder that if the shutter speed is longer than 1/25 the frame rate actually drops to accommodate it. You can sometimes inadvertently be shooting at a framerate lower than 24 fps this way.

@Dalefpf
There are certain charts published by ASC regarding the judder avoidance. These charts rely pretty much on a "7 seconds rule"
In a pinch for a 24fps footage shot at 180º shutter (1/50th of a second for GH2, I guess) the panning rate should be such that an object within a frame would move from one edge of the frame to another (left to right or right to left) in 7 seconds.
One would assume that if you shoot at higher shutter speeds the timing changes accordingly, ie 14 seconds for a pan from edge to edge when shooting at 1/100th of a second.

I think the grass looked good because it was covering less space from frame to frame and could be covered by motion vectors. The water moved farther from frame to frame and probably couldn't be covered by motion vectors. At that point the codec probably decided to use intra-frame encoded macroblocks but didn't have the remaining bandwidth to cover them, so the macroblocks were "skipped". I've noticed that with the hack, there are much fewer "skipped" macroblocks than with the factory codec settings.

Chris

There have been studies that show that the 24fps rate, because it is visible, actually contributes to the psychology of suspension of disbelief. Narrative videos "feel" different at 30fps than at 24fps.

Chris

I am wondering if some if this concern actually revolves around the different ways that people convert their original files, and how hard it is for some computers to accurately handle a smooth playback of certain MTS footage. Just an idea.

For me the issue is not 24p, but whether the 24p on the GH2 looks juddery compared to other cameras like the GH1. To me, the GH2 is very slightly less smooth. I'm sure that some people will see 24p slightly differently than others. For example, some people see rainbows in projection TVs, others do not.

@Dalefpf

I agree with you the studder is more pronounced in the GH2 24p footage. Hacked and Unhacked. Shot some steadicam footage with gop3 and about 47mbs the other day. Didn't notice the judder/jitter till viewed on 46" screen. Didn't show up on my 28" calibrated computer screen. Looked at some old GH2 unhacked footage, it was there. Checked some 5D Mkii footage. It wasn't there. When I get a moment, I am going to go shoot some similar steadicam footage on the 5D Mark II to compare. I'm guessing it is going to be there. I may also fire up a projector to see if it shows up there but guessing the same results will show as with the 46" TV. I do not see the judder at 60p nor do I always see it at 24P. I'm guessing it is more pronounced/noticeable during different types of shots/conditions.

Ran a few more tests today but still no progress. I don't want to come off the wrong way but do you guys really not see the jerky motion and constant strobe when you pan? Regardless of of monitor settings and such. I can see it plain as day on the lcd as I'm filming. I know the proper speeds to pan and I know what 24p looks like. I'll be shooting on a Canon in about 2 hours from now and I'm looking forward to it at this point. The GH2 kills Canon in every way except for this which is so frustrating. I keep boxing this thing up and then pulling it back out to test it again because I'm just so dumbfounded by this. The fact that many people don't complain about this leads me to think I'm crazy. But, I know cameras and do this for a living full time. Fu*k me, I guess. Just can't stand being bested by this damn camera. Okay, I'm done. Rant over...... Thanks again for all replies and helpful comments. Best of luck to you all.

@Dalefpf

I can see it clearly as well. When recording in 24H the LCD looks like it's updating at about 12-16 fps. When I first got the camera I thought I was looking at the old silent film rate of 16 fps. I'm suspicious that Panasonic is doing some tricks to make the 24h output look more like "cinema with afterimages" as it says in the manual.

I just did a bunch of tests panning in 24H vs. 1080i, 720p and MJPG modes. The 24h panning is definitely a lot more strobed. This is not just the difference between 30 fps and 24 fps - I've been dealing with that for years. This is something else.

@Vitaly
What's the current status of the "1080 progressive" patch in ptool? is it worth trying this to get a viable high-res alternative to 24H?

@dalefpf try two things: first find in this topic my suggestion on panning rates and follow it. Do you still see strobing motion in your footage? Do a review on a powerful enough computer (plays fine on a 2009 MBP, also on a 2.66 Quad core duo Windows 7 desktop) If you are on Windows, use WMP, not VLC for a playback. DO not judge based on the viewfinder.
Secondly, do all of the above but turn off the autofocus or put it into a single mode, rather than c mode.
Report.

@JDN

It could very well be post workflow, I don't know. That would be great, in fact, as it would be fixable. I use FCP7 log&transfer to ProRes422 for most projects. I also use 5DtoRGB to convert footage, though this is still in the testing phase. Should I be considering a different workflow?

@Dalefpf

This 24P artifact bugs me but I put it down to small stuff. The posterization/banding and CMOS jello were much bigger issues to my mind. The first seem to be greatly improved by the firmware hack and the second unchanged (and endemic to most DSLRs). Still, I think the GH2 is a fantastic camera. Every camera system includes some kind of tradeoffs. For me, the GH2 is the sweet spot. I'd like to try to dial in the look as much as possible, but I certainly wouldn't stop using it just because of slightly weird motion on pans. In most types of video work, if your audience is thinking about the pans and judder, you have a much bigger problem...

How about this for a test - rig up several cameras to the same tripod head and outfit them with either the same lens or lenses that will give the same equivalent view on a given sensor. So you could have GH1, GH2, 5DmkII, whatever else, and then shoot a series of panning shots. Do it at various speeds, and if you perceive a difference, show us a split screen with the GH2 on one side and the camera you feel has better motion rendition on the other.

I think the perception of motion is a tough topic for many, only some of us really notice whether the cadence feels right or not. You even hear people saying things like 'most viewers can't tell the difference between 24p and 30p' - well to me it's the most obvious thing in the world. Some people leave motion smoothing interpolation enabled on their 120hz/240hz televisions whereas I find it utterly unwatchable. Even with it turned off, I can see a difference in how my 24" Dell LCD renders 24p versus my 40" Samsung LCD, even bluray at 24hz (and I prefer how it looks on the Dell, unfortunately).

It wouldn't explain the discrepancies some are seeing in GH2 vs. GH1 motion, but as for digital image acquisition in general, some have theorized it's the difference between electronic and mechanical shutters that accounts for part of what makes film look like film and digital look like digital. You even see this in RED's "magic motion" feature on the Epics; they seem to acknowledge there's more than one way for digital sensors to render motion, and have given people some options. Who knows what the GH2 defaults to?