@majoraxis

Whole talk above was that BM play same marketing games as big guys, as they are already big guys themselves with big banks standing behind their back.

Last time I checked, the P4K camera isn't in release. It's not even technically late.

Some companies send cameras out to reviewers to do pre-release reviews and write ups.

Some just launch the camera and show some demo footage.

Some demo footage kills a camera before it's even launched (hello Cion and Kinefinity).

BMD chose this time to send the camera to several users to shoot footage in specific scenarios. Sports, fashion, natural history....

Some other users in a second round of testing also got what looks like early pre-production copies as well to do some additional footage that was released only with the permission of BMD.

In each case, it was a FILM MAKER not a reviewer or blogger that had a camera.

Andrew posted a couple of un-boxing videos claiming it was a reviewer, but that happened AFTER I made the post and I'm still pretty sure even those posters aren't reviewers, they are just lucky filmmakers (likely chose by regional BMD heads) that got to beta test the camera and shoot an unboxing.

And let's face the cold truth.

It's up to the company. It's their property, their business and sure once it's in the wild, everything changes and everyone has a go anyway.

How can anyone truly bitch and sook like Andrew has about how a company decides how they launch and market their products ? He wants special treatment and argues he should get it because he hosts a forum and claims that he generates publicity ? Where by the way he happily sells you LUTS and Guides.

BMD did it differently this time around and that was THEIR choice to make and theirs alone. You might not agree with it. How would you know if I agree or disagree ? I just pointed it out. But is it worth a personal attack on me for them making that choice ? All I did was to point this thinking out to Andrew and he threw a tantrum and decided it was my fault he didn't get invited to an event.

I don't work for BMD. I have nothing to do with them other than trying out "new" stuff and shooting some demo footage for them and giving my feedback. The kind of stuff Andrew wishes he could do but doesn't get to.

He seems to think my participation on his forum was to sell and spruik for BMD.

Guess what. I don't. Which is also why I can speak my mind. I'm not a shrill, all my experience is from using them every fucking day and staking my DAY JOB as an image maker and my imaging reputation by making that choice. Not because I'm paid to or sponsored to like others on junkets or marketing events.

My post was from seeing this constant sense of entitlement from many forums and I was speaking on the context of having left a few facebook groups that had this tone. He seemed to assume I was actually talking about him personally.

I'm come from a real working set on real shows in the real world and I like to share those experiences. For that I'm crucified. For being candid I'm pilloried. What really gets me is later in the thread another user who always downvotes my posts happily answered a question for another user with information only I've posted about.

Maybe he's forgotten I often post in his forum in the Olympus section as well, not to mention on SLR Magic lenses.

All areas I have direct hands on real world experience. No one has shot has shot as much SLR Magic as I have. Does that mean I'm a shrill because I like to speak enthusiastically about them ? Does that mean if they don't send Andrew a demo set then he can write another personal attack about me ?

For a guy that claims to be a journalist, what he really wants is to be an insider. But he also likes to portray himself as some kind of independent voice of indie filmmaking...and yet will happy pursue a vendetta against a manufacturer because they snubbed him ? Is that what journalists do ? He wants the cache of being an insider and filmmaker, but he's at best a blogger and journalist writing about filmmaking that hosts a forum.

And why should BMD give anyone special treatment ? Other than wanting to sell cameras, they can do whatever they like can't they ? What entitles you, me or anyone to special ongoing treatment. Usually this happens because you're smart enough to manage a relationship. Something he clearly can't do.

In the end marketing is a promise. If the promise doesn't deliver then consumers get to have the ultimate revenge.

JB

@johnbrawley

Thanks for detailed explanation.

Is company free to do anything they want? Yet, now it is so. This must be stopped by society.

What exactly BM (Canon/Nikon) is doing that must be stopped? They handpick filmmakers, journalists, bloggers (this time filmmakers as you said) and send them early cameras. It is ok to send someone you choose early samples, but ONLY for internal feedback and testing. As soon as this people start posting various footage, their reviews, hands-ons, etc - well, this becomes bad. Intentionally or not by having such people pack company is able to get PR result that they want. But it is not objective result that society needs.

People in such packs know that is expected from them and know that if they do not deliver that is expected or write things that are far from expected - they are out of pack. And usually with no chance to go back.

Such firms behavior become worse and worse with each year. And can be observed not only in cameras.

Does such approach affect sales? Definitely.

What must be made? Before actual mass sales only company own promotion(!) videos/texts must be allowed, clearly marked as such. No benchmarks or comparisons must be allowed to be made by company or anyone else. If company so much want to provide free review samples, they all must be send to one address for storage and any reviewer since announcement to sales moment can apply for them. 3 days after sales start this samples will be sent to random people who applied.

Who fill be hurt? Well, big channels, big review sites, close pack members - who are information monopolies now due to early access. All other, including general public - will gain a lot.

Considering Andrew being unfit, not right filmmaker and such. Well, I think it is elitist view. Andrew's site and PV site actually appeared during the moment where such "not right filmmakers" actually made a lot of good for filmmaking society. Now you think that it is best to shut up this niche as this people due to their independency can actually sometimes tell or write things companies do not like. I am far from Andrew friend as everyone knows here. Yet BM company position here is position of quite big capitalist company acting against society and such must be stopped.

@Vitaliy_Kiselev

Well, you propose that “Before actual mass sales only company own promotion(!) videos/texts must be allowed, clearly marked as such.” How is it different from what is happening now? All the footage is released on official company channel. Technically, if they hire John, pay him money and buy all the rights for the footage they can cut his name from the final product and call it their “marketing department” job, but I don’t see how it will improve what’s already done. Right now I’m happy I can read real personal notes (from a real and experienced cinematographer) on how the camera is working.

Also, keep in mind that no benchmarks and comparisons are made. We only see some demo films, we can also download some footage. Those who don’t trust this footage, will wait for tests from real people and make their decision. Those who need this camera for work, will make their own tests to see how it’s performing. Those who think they were cheated by current demo films and bough camera too early can always return it, I don’t see a problem here.

I understand that the cameras are in early demo, something is probably not working yet, so Blackmagic don’t want to send early prototypes to anyone to be blamed later. That’s ok, as soon as all the functions that are reviewed are working the same as in the final product.

Also, I’d prefer seeing tests from real filmmakers, not bloggers or journalists. Those guys usually shoot some nonsense stuff (like a race track in midday), which doesn’t tell me anything about how the camera performs.

@Lohmatij

I think you do not get my points.

Things I am talking about are serious and you won't like consequences quite soon. From ordinary reader is can seem like no big deal for now, but it is.

They worry most reviewers, even ones who are part of the pack.

Voldemort, whatever one thinks of his skills as a filmmaker, has a severely inflated sense of his importance and I still don't see why any company would supply him a review sample of a camera, given his tendency to hyperbole.

Well, only reason why he was not invited is either laziness or fear. As if you count people who actually buy cameras like BM last one he has quite big potential audience. At the time all "professional, real filmmakers" cried and called for death of DLSR like small cameras and how everyone need to go to professional cinema cameras (or at least DVX200), and they cried because it was marketing department position of the time (plus they loved such cameras for long time anyway), he at least stood to his principles. His economic position is also quite different from filmmaker who is hired and know that if he does not deliver required(!) result can have trouble not only with BM, but with many companies as PR guys share info instantly.

Andrew represent average buyer of BM cameras much closer than hired filmmakers do. Yet I am afraid that PR people hold too tight to their job as they do not like any unpredictable texts that come from his heart :-).

@johnbrawley

I think we get your position properly here.

But I completely do not agree with some parts. First you started to prize marketing and right for capitalist company to present their goods the way they like. Nothing to prize here, as it is very bad thing.

My position is simple - if we want to get any real progress, any and all promotion materials, including videos outside tightly specific amount with tightly specified content restrictions - must be prohibited. This includes controlled previews, reviews, meeting, footage by filmmakers and anyone else. The reviewers can get any free cameras shipped to them (not NDA lifted!) in three days from wide sales start, so all other people who bough items will post initial opinions/samples already.

Situation I am talking is clear to anyone in the online press - companies form and control tests/reviews/footage by providing time and gear advantages to people they control. And it is mutual thing, as popular media can only keep their advantage if they keep getting access early. This is road to hell, with monopolies who will interleave with media forming informational fascism.

Thing I want to tell is that no compromise is possible here, as interests of society and camera buyers is directly opposite to interests of BM (as example of camera manufacturer). And if people wont stand against BM actions it'll just mean camera market degradation.

But... you get all of that once the camera ships don’t you ? I mean I can’t speak to shipping dates but it’s surely imminent and we’ve had two weeks of tests available ? I really don’t get WHY it’s a problem to have both ?

Do not get meaning of this. Or you not understand simple thing I precisely formulated in post above?

We live in a capitalist world and companies get to control what you see until they ship a camera.

Actually no, even in capitalist world it is not such in many cases in the market. You clearly see restrictions on alcohol or cigarettes and their advertisements are limited.

When has that ever been different ?

It had been, and it will be. The sooner - the better.

You’re never going to get unregulated pre release testing. It’s foolishnto think that would ever happen.

Well, I am all for private bugs finding and told this above. But declaring that companies can have their hand chosen pack and post anything public from them - it is real road to hell.

What is the advantage to the manufacturer?

Did you actually read the post?

Thing I want to tell is that no compromise is possible here, as interests of society and camera buyers is directly opposite to interests of BM (as example of camera manufacturer). And if people wont stand against BM actions it'll just mean camera market degradation.

Like this part?

Do you understand that BM interests are opposite to interests of camera buyers? Just because only thing BM wants is to sell you their box with camera and do not care about anything else.

Some demo footage kills a camera before it's even launched (hello Cion and Kinefinity).

Hello Z Cam!

Quite sad really, I wish they'd do the launch of the Z Cam E2 better.

@Vitaliy_Kiselev

“At the time all "professional, real filmmakers" cried and called for death of DLSR like small cameras ” I think you get it wrong here, Vitaly.

I know a lot of professional filmmakers who enjoyed the DSLR ride. In fact I worked on a feature production which was shot with GH2 back in 2011, and DP was quite sad that GH2 hack wasn’t released yet (it got released by the end of production). That’s how I found out about this very forum and all the efforts you made to improve GH2 codec.

I'm come from a real working set on real shows in the real world and I like to share those experiences. For that I'm crucified. For being candid I'm pilloried.

Please don't stop JB! For everyone who attacks you, there is hundreds in the silent majority who greatly appreciate your posts in sharing from your real life experience on pro sets, something which is sadly lacking in many of these more "indie" orientated forums like here and over there.

@DrDave

Indeed.

But in addition to "just a camera" it allowed to show important issues.

@bannedindv

New here is that you need to learn to abstract from feelings and read facts.

@johnbrawley I'd like to say thank you for your participation as well. I previously had the fortune of you answering some of my questions on another product and the insights of someone with your experience is always appreciated. I agree with your view pre-release it's all advertising and the company has a right to control it especially with pre-production units. No one is entitled to get an invitation to anything the company does. When the product is released than it is open game.