I think you misunderstand ! ....they're one and the same thing ! This is not debt incurred by greek citizens for the benefit of themselves , nor their country. This is debt incurred by eurozone banksters attempting to make killer profits for themselves and their crooked institution ! ...period

When they print the money, it has "debt" inherent in it's creation. Debt is an weapon to blackmail us into subservience...or debt slavery. When you go to the bank and borrow their money, they don't go down to the vault and count out their one hundred dollar bills . They electronically create that money , which didn't exist before you borrowed it. It's a giant pyramid scheme ! But for it to work, people must believe in the ghost in the machine. If people don't believe, then the wizard's clothes are stripped away , and he's revealed for what he really is.....a thief ! That's what's happening in europe today.

...here's some more strange talk -

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2015/07/05/greeks-vote-eu-imposed-austerity-paul-craig-roberts/

....when a democratically decided election ( in the home where democracy was founded ) overturns decisions of the controlling elites , it can only mean profound changes are in order for the world . The question is how to keep the ball rolling.

most of their population will have to live a much simpler life

maybe that's the moral of the story behind all these financial collapses. anyway, the "american dream" was never a utopia. it always had a dark side. maybe a much simpler life is better.

Piketty's point: https://medium.com/@gavinschalliol/thomas-piketty-germany-has-never-repaid-7b5e7add6fff

I'd take that Piketty article with a grain of salt. As a German I hope and believe there will be a 100% debt cut for Greece eventually, as so many people predicted from the get-go. Greece is the cradle of democracy and an immensely important part of European history. Europe should not just be about money, sadly it seems to be to most members right now.

"If you think you know it all, then you are clearly misinformed."

provocative...not really ...but who are you quoting ?

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/06/opinion/paul-krugman-ending-greeces-bleeding.html?_r=0

funny how lyndon larouche was labeled a fanatic by most US politicians, but is now having the last laugh ...and not only just about this ! His screaming about a tyrannical power attempting to take over the world sounded crazy in 1960, but today ....well, what goes around , comes around.

@yiannis_zach @kurth: If those weird conspiracy stories about dark foreign forces ripping off Greece had any truth to them, the current Greek gouvernment had no reason to at all negotiate (or rather beg) for additional money from abroad.

If Greece had a reasonably solid economy and a working tax system, and their only problem was a pile of Euro debt, they could just default, re-introduce the Drachma, and be done with it.

But it's not quite like that! Every single day of the past, Greece relied on foreign money, foreign goods and foreign services - and they lied to the other EU countries big time from the very moment they wanted to join the EU. They falsified economic numbers to enter the club, and some politicians outside of Greece turned a blind eye to this for the sake of just enlarging the EU.

What's going on now in Greece is the big "reality check". Without additional billions of ELA loans flowing into Greece from the ECB the greek banks will be bankrupt within days. And the people on the streets will start to realize that mana doesn't fall from the skies, and neither do consumer goods.

When a restaurant guest today orders a "greek salad" in Saloniki, chances are that all its ingredients will have been imported from abroad - even the tomatoes and onions will likely be imports from Spain or elsewhere.

And that's the big difference to all the other contemporary or historic cases of countries (near-)defaulting: Ireland, Spain, Germany after WW2, all these are examples of countries that were capable of sustaining their lifestyle from domestic products. Greece is a very, very, different case. They have corruption and lack of productivity akin to third world countries, and without constant monetary transfers from the EU, they'll become just that: A third world country, unable to sustain the "western lifestyle" they adopted. Until they finally decide to fucking do something about their own productivity, get rid of their habitual tax fraud, stop the patronage and make some reasonable politics.

Obviously, Greece is not quite at the point to believe that they need to change, so there's almost zero chance now for any agreements with the rest of the EU.

@karl

If Greece had a reasonably solid economy and a working tax system, as also politicians that are not corrupted or "installed" by the bigger powers, then yes you are right. In Greece they say "the fish stinks from the head", which in this specific situation means, problem starts from the politicians and their "bosses". This is not an excuse for their voters-supporters, but at least them they mostly getting easily manipulated, been promised miracles, but then again & again they fell in same mistakes, supporting the same persons-politicians. Since 1960 & till today, which means for 55 years, Greece had -mostly- 2 families leading them: Papandreou & Karamanlis. Both of them, not so much Greeks originally, but with American & Jewish roots apart their part-Greek ones. These 2 families, leaded by upper forces, together with the hypnotised crowd, brought this country to the end. Greece is just a 1/4 of a step away from the total complete collapse. Before them, again for decades, Greeks had German, Austrian & English Kings leading this nation... They never let Greece alone, as they always had their noses in every Greek period after Greece became free from the Ottoman empire. Plus the USA of course, as Greece has the advantage to connect Europe with Asia, but also very close to north Africa, which means Greece can be a good point for US armies, so to make some bases within the Greek territory. As you understand, things are very complicated when you have so many powerful-countries over your head... Especially when you also want to separate Greece from your biggest enemy: -the also orthodox- Russia... Now I hope you are getting the point. People who leading IMF, EU, etc, they very well know that there is not a way back to the better, as they are the responsible for what happens and for what will happen, soon. As they knew (basically it's them who also cooked-created) the fake economical situation that Greece gave to EU, so to be acceptable in the EU. Why? I think I explained this already in the previous paragraph. Right now in Greece there is an investigation about this, today's government runs it, and some of the (Greek) persons that are badly involved in this, moved to Germany. You know what's happening? Greece asks from Germans to arrest and send these person back to Greece, but Germans fully protect them, refusing any help to the Greek courts... You know why? Because Germans are also deeply involved in all this, they all together cooked this matrix. The crisis thing is a matrix situation. That's all. Anything you may believe is just an illusion, you are well manipulated. Just this. I could talk and write on this for hours, but I don't see the reason why. If anyone wants to really be informed, then the first thing he have to do, is to never again watch the media. Just for the end, and as you gave this Greek taverna example, please listen to this also: when Greece entered in EU, were able to produce at least 70% of her needs, and I'm talking at least about food stuff. After the EU thing, it was the EU that said "you stop producing this, this, this & this, and you'll get them from "there" for example. We stop producing cotton, oranges, potatoes, tomatoes, etc., and instead we had to import them. Why all this? But how else you could trap someone and having him under your "kind protection" for ever? Greece, time by time, became wicker, & wicker, & wicker. Greece at the moment is not able -without strongly, deeply suffer- to leave EU. She is in hostage, as the plan worked really well... The EU is nothing else that a great plan so some countries-economies will keep some other ones in complete hostage. And when I say countries, I don't mean the citizens (it will be faulty to put blames on German people for example), but the "heads". The citizens, as nice good zombies, they just look, listen & believe their media, which media simply serving their bosses... Yes, the ones who are the sole responsible even for the way you are thinking. Think about it.

Issues are fundamental, not some bankers only

http://ourfiniteworld.com/2015/07/08/what-greece-cyprus-and-puerto-rico-have-in-common/

I would say this guy has it 95 percent right http://www.nationofchange.org/2015/07/05/greece-what-you-are-not-being-told-by-the-media/

However, what all the economists are missing is the following: in a rate-locked system such as the euro, there is no mechanism for internal devaluation other than partial bankruptcy. They could, of course, fix this by creating a rainy day fund by a tax on financial swaps which the banks do zillions of time a day (unlikely, but ultimately possible) or they could peg the debt to the tax rate on the top 5 percent combined personal and corporate (would work perfectly, but not likely since the top 5 percent run the government).

It's unlikely that they will fix it. But one can hope....

I would say this guy has it 95 percent right http://www.nationofchange.org/2015/07/05/greece-what-you-are-not-being-told-by-the-media/

Well, it can be partially right, but it is same lie as media does.

As I said, problems are fundamental. Banks in such situation worsen the problems, yes, but it is stupid to think that you can solve issues fixing financial part only.