@kronstadt the Euro version, though it's so much more than AFM, would be Cannes. I went with a big group of colleagues for the fun of it, and to support the premiere of The Fifth Element the year it opened Cannes and have looked forward to returning since. It's a great experience. Their film market, I think, is the most important in Europe.

@matt_gh2 yes, I'm having an offline discussion with one of my producer friends about "four walling". Even in the big ones that are associated with the majors you can set up your own screenings, generally. They'll charge a flat rate depending on whether it's totally private or not. They get raped by their own affiliation with the major studios who take the lions share (sometimes all, like opening day or weekend) of ticket sales on the biggest, most expensive films so the individual theater is more dependent on concession sales than anything for survival.

Some famous, successful examples of "four walling" would be the original horror classics of the '70s Texas Chainsaw Massacre and John Carpenter's Halloween, before they went wide release, perhaps the original Night of the Living Dead too if I'm remembering right. Then of course you have the notorious Deep Throat which made millions at 1970s ticket prices going this route.

As a ballpark reference, having done two of these types of bookings for crew screenings here at Austin's famous Alamo Drafthouse Cinemas, I'd expect somewhere in the neighborhood of $1000 as a starting point. That figure is both scary and exciting at the same time. Exciting in the sense that you couldn't get commercial television time during the wee hours of the infomercial for this kind of money.

Scary, if you start doing the math on how many people would need to attend to recoup your costs through ticket sales. But, take heart, that was for a totally private screening where no money was collected and shared with the theater. The price comes down when there is money to be made through ticket sales, the trick being it's on you to get the word out and get people to show up.

edit: oh, and anyone can attend these film markets, you just need to get you a badge by paying the entrance fee as an exhibitor or buyer, like any convention.

@kholi thanks, and I'm taking the tact of listing the budget simply because I'm proud of it. I was proud of what we did in Xtracurricular @ $135K in-the-can, being that we did absolutely crazy stuff like open the film at a football game, shoot at all sorts of locations, were one of the first ever 24P narrative features to use the Sony F900, etc. but Sick Boy feels like an even bigger accomplishment given that it's SAG, shot in half the time, production was professionally catered (rather than us buying Subway for the cast/crew everyday) 3X meals a day and the stated budget includes all post production costs as well.

We had to raise an additional $65K to finish Xtracurricular, mostly for the online HD editorial. Just the 1.5Tb SCSI-III array (raw drives mind you, not their full-tower-PC-sized-cases) was $16K back then where now it's no big thing.

It's kind of a dare too, and a statement of what we can do for practically nothing. Our reps at Raven Banner had me take the "snipe" off the head of our promo screeners to not adversely influence what was being offered by foreign buyers but I think the time to be coy about what was spent is over.

edit: SYFY + The Asylum spend somewhere closer to $1M for their monster movie abominations. They don't even try and that bullshit costs that much to produce.

@kholi we don't know yet how profitable it's going to be. The returns don't trickle in on a constant stream we have to wait until set periods for revenue reporting. That I'm aware of, only one market gave any money up-front (things are tough all over) and most of that was instantly spent before it got to us recouping the sales team's costs for taking it to global film markets, etc. (those are now paid and done moving forward).

This is where self-distribution and partnering with a high bandwidth, streaming vendor, has its definite advantages. You would, ideally, have a much more immediate, up-to-date sense of how things were going. Dealing with "the establishment" you're kept in the dark most of the time, either intentionally or because you're not their most important client and they're busy guys, unless they need something from you.

There, sorta back on topic ;)

Cool. Yeah, I figure, if nothing else all the info on traditional distribution is fuel for the fire of interest in these new, alternative paths that are showing up. The Establishment is slow, clumsy and full of cliques and passwords and all sorts of other challenges to outsiders. Most of the information you get even in the "indie" film press tends to leave out information that's actually useful for us because it's not sexy.

edit: and just so we're clear, even though I've worked on major films for almost twenty years now, that was visual effects. Post production, like all service industries, are still very much "outsiders". They used Tim's association with big films on the cover and in promotional material for Sick Boy but nobody in film buying or selling or production gives a warm squirt of...you know...for below-the-line vendors they simply see as labor.

To put things into post-Civil War America terms, VFX vendors are like The Irish, who, in certain parts of the country, was considered a lower-class human being than The Negro. The Irish didn't even rate being given a mug at the pub, they had to get their mouthful for a nickel, cry over what got spilt on the ground and bugger off.

Great thread, thanks for sharing everyone.

Perhaps we may put a list of potential online options available to film makers? Some of the names already mentioned in this thread, and a few others I found yesterday as I went along:

http://www.yekra.com/ < This may be world wide, not only US and Canada territories ???

http://www.distribber.com/ < potentially many US providers, for a fee, conduit to iTunes.

https://www.createspace.com/Products/VideoDownload/

http://distrify.com/

http://www.youtube.com/ < Pay Per View feature, seems to relate to sport/event live streaming.

https://vimeo.com/ < Tip Jar only

http://site.dynamoplayer.com/ < ???

I am sure there are many more, please share. I have no affiliation or knowledge if the above entities are suitable and/or reputable.

@kronstadt , the Vimeo option evolving looks promising. I am interested to see what general guidelines they publish in early 2013, or in due course. Thanks for sharing this.

I was unable to get a straight answer from Vimeo about what they will allow. I am writing a script that has several moderately explicit scenes, and their published guidelines appear to forbid that. So, my plan is to run the trailer on Vimeo and find another streaming service for the finished film.

I am interested in what deliverables Vimeo may request in respect of legal matters. Such as, will they be asking for copies of production agreements, etc? Also, a few sample rent products available now include multiple territories, such as US only, and world wide, so this also may open up a global market option, providing content around the world, together with content providers from around the world providing their product to a potentially global market. Interesting.

I am surprised YouTube has not popularised this model already, since everyone knows YT and they have such a big base to tap into. I read an article from back in 2010 where YT explored some PPV movie titles, however, it did not appear to be profitable. This may have been partly due to not promoting the service the correct way, who knows. 3 years later, perhaps things are changing. I hope Vimeo provide an option that is simple enough for an indie production to release their product to a global market.

If the streaming site is sharing in any PPV revenue or charging anything at all, or even facilitating you and another party exchanging money, you can bet they're going to want copies of all agreements and releases. The same as any distributor. They can only plead no culpability in any violations found in a video if they're completely hands-off and not involved.

What they likely won't ask for are cue lists and spotting lists and dialog, etc. because it will likely be up to the filmmaker/producer to generate any alternate audio tracks, closed-captioning, subtitles, etc. They also likely won't be needing all the publicity photos, etc. that a normal distributor needs to go to print or create new artwork. All the legal stuff though, the stuff you should have anyhow, they'll need that.

Going all "wild wild west" in a new type of distribution channel is the surest way for it to get shut down and independents completely locked out by folks like the MPAA and RIAA, right quick.

@kronstadt dilution of the market potential in other traditional distribution channels is a concern, yes, but I think perceptions are changing. HDNET has been experimenting over the last several years, since the release of Soderberg's BUBBLE with simultaneous or pre-theatrical streaming video release. I can't say whether foreign markets are as evolved though.

Simply having your film shown in a theatrical venue for an arbitrary minimum time, regardless of whether or not anyone actually sees it, can mean a completely different tier of negotiation from certain foreign markets, before even beginning (France maybe, I forget which).

Money talks though. A demonstrable success (even a small one) streaming can likely erase any hesitation with a home video distributor. That's just me speculating though. I'm often surprised by the illogical mechanics I encounter in all manner of business practices.

@kronstadt, good summary, YT is globally known, and Vimeo may not even be known to exist to many out there. YT being so big, it is unlikely they would try to provide a method for indie productions to be recognised, it would be too much effort for too little reward, if any. Yes, YT are competing with multiple streaming vendors, and then there is the subscription options, so YT has a different monopoly to focus and maintain. Vimeo may still provide an opportunity for some people, niche market may be ok with the right product and self promotion skills that direct people to the content for rent/sale. Thanks for your feedback.

@BurnetRhoades, wow, your input and sharing your experiences is appreciated. I was thinking Vimeo will have to do their best to clear and confirm content, so as to avoid being joined into potential legal proceedings, as a result of their streaming of the content in question. While many will be able to produce legal documents required, there may be some people who can't, for various reasons. I guess the Vimeo Tip Jar is the only option for these people caught between being creative and business operators.

Funny you mention having content blocked. My friend is a musician, creates world music from recordings he gathers around the world (fee/release/agreement mostly, some split, etc), coupled with his own performances and music he creates in the studio. Well, it is not funny, when he uploaded one of his songs with a video edit to YouTube, the video was blocked and they said he did not have authority/copyright. Nothing to do with a claim against him, just YT triggered this somehow. Not sure if this is a result of the recording having digital signatures in them, a process he had completed after mastering, and the album/tracks are for sale on iTunes. He holds all ownership and control rights, etc. I am not sure if that has been resolved yet, it does highlight the complicated nature of this somewhat new and evolving digital world we live.

Limited hours in a day, so much content available.

Yes, I think that is where it is at, in the black hole. It is not causing disruption, as sales and interest base are mostly related to other sources and iTunes sales. I'll find out where he is at YT and if there is now a known reason this happened to him, when I see him later this week. Stranger than fiction.

@vicharris Interesting info. When you say On Demand, do you mean Cable TV On Demand and iTunes (vs the online on-demand rental/purchase from sites like Distrify, Yekra, etc.)?

@Kronstadt - I didn't ask about deliverables, just content guidelines.