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RED attacks Sony
  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    RED claims that three cameras made by defendants Sony Electronics and Sony Corporation of America “all embody the subject matter claimed in Red’s asserted patents without any license.” The federal court filing adds that “Red is informed and believes and thereupon alleges that the sale of Sony’s unauthorized, infringing cameras has resulted in lost sales, reduced the business and profit of Red, and greatly injured the general reputation of Red.” Alleging two instances of “willful and wanton” patent infringement on technology used in its Red One camera, Red is seeking a court order that its patents are “valid and enforceable” as well as an injunction against Sony’s F65, F55 and F5 cameras to stop their further sale and have them destroyed.

    Document - http://www-deadline-com.vimg.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/RED-DIGITAL-SONY-PATENT-SUIT__130213155619.pdf

    Via: http://www.deadline.com/2013/02/lawsuit-red-digital-cinemas-sony-corp-the-hobbit-cameras/

    It seems like Sony cameras made big hole in RED sales, especially in the rented cameras department.

  • 71 Replies sorted by
  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    Patents:

  • vicharrisvicharris

    Good god. I feel like this is Litepanels all over again. I wish I had the patients to read all that patent crap and figure out what the hell they are talking about. Anyone care to explain to a lazy american what that means? :)

  • 010101010101

    RED put all their money on developing the next stage of video camera and sales never came in to compensate the investments. Now the industrial progression by others taken the timely turn for advancement and RED are trying to claim all the higher grounds - at once. The guy claims he has never lost a court case but that doesn't mean that he has been winning them. RED sales finally matched their busted reputation and the only thing is left is bullying others for some pocket money to pay the rent for a few months. Their greed killed them - they should've kept the promise of 3K/$3K and have the prosumer market for days like this.

  • fehafeha

    Soon they will complain they lost sales cause of GH2(hacked and GH3 ... :-)

  • tetakpataktetakpatak

    Ha, ha- I tought just the same thing @feha already wrote. IMO Sony will slowly win the video market in general, latest 2014 it might get obvious.

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    I have interesting theory.

    In my opinion RED goal here is to force Sony to make deal to manufacture sensors for RED. As Sony has most modern tech and best engineers in this area. And it looks like RED is having big issues finding manufacturer for sensors.

  • 010101010101

    @Vitaliy, WoW ! Such a great point. It will be an interesting exchange but in the long run RED will become Sony's underdog. It's just matter of time.

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    @010101

    I'll tell you this. Only one thing stop RED from being extinct - Japanese managers. As adding raw into modern cameras is very easy, just requires few modifications.

  • tetakpataktetakpatak

    @VK +1 but probably Sony doesn't need to care for RED, they are eaten already.

  • andyharrisandyharris

    I've read through the first and skimmed the second patent. They are very generalised and it would seem that almost any 4K camera that seeks minimal compression would fall foul of these patents.

    Some of claims are no more than matrix arithmetic -- why oh why are patents granted on stuff that is not proper invention.

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    why oh why are patents granted on stuff that is not proper invention

    Because no one skilled really reads them. System collapsed quote long ago.

  • danyyyeldanyyyel

    I imagine a world where one of the photo camera manufacturer would have patented raw like 10 years ago, where photography would be now. There have been many compression etc method with no law suit (at least I did not see it). If Jannard was so confident about the Dragon sensor why try to block his competitors with lawsuits.

    The guy made many strategic errors with red camera. One was the 3k for 3k camera. Even if it was not the original plan camera at this price point, a much more affordable raw camera would have been a success and would have broaden red market a lot. The BMC is the living example and ones it ships in volume it will have a profound impact on the cinema/indie market and undercut cameras like the scarlet. People will own and will rent only when there is a need for things like slowmo.

    Now he has to face some other competing cameras that will undercut his market with some unique technologies. While Jannard was pissed that did not have the DR crown. And that everybody was talking so much about the DR of the Alexa, he shoots for that. In the meanwhile Sony puts out a camera with global shutter at a competing price to his Epic. Who needs more than 14 stop of DR if you global shutter. His competitor are coming with more balanced product. That is why he is reacting now with patent lawsuits, just when the F5/F55 of this world are coming out.

  • GH2UWGH2UW

    What remaining respect I still had for the way RED does business just evaporated. Who's next on the RED lawyers banquet...BMCC?

    I suspect RED have opened a Pandora's Box that they will soon wish they hadn't. No doubt Sony's lawyers will find a few "infringements" of their own to hit RED with...

    edit: Check out what's being said at Reduser about this (before it's pulled)...first time I've ever seen very negative comments about RED on that forum!

  • danyyyeldanyyyel

    Looking at some of the info, it seem as if red has patented camera that would do raw from 2k and as from 23 frame per second. So imagine a world where Haselblad would have patented cameras more than 16 megapixel, or Intel about processors of more than 1 ghz. It is that ridiculous.

  • andyharrisandyharris

    @danyyel Thats the stuff that sets the scene, you need to look at the claims parts - these are things that RED are claiming as invention. The scene setting stuff is to make sure they get included in patent searches.

  • svartsvart

    @Vitaliy_Kiselev

    "Because no one skilled really reads them. System collapsed quote long ago."

    Absolutely.

  • bheathbheath

    This is an interesting thread. Any time a decision is motivated by fear, it's usually the wrong one. At least that's my own experience. The burley, "kick your ass" approach will never work for anyone, and the small person will lose. So many people risked so much to make the red company what it is by buying a camera or two. I imagine many of the red owners financed their gear in good faith. That takes courage!

    I have used red cameras (rentals) and they are not flawless. Perhaps they should step lightly and avoid conflict as much as possible. I'd like that anyway.

  • 010101010101

    Check out the lawsuits section ( halfway down the page ).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Digital_Cinema_Camera_Company#Lawsuits

    It must be embarrassing for an entity like RED to have a list like this out there. I mean, there are " dismissed " and " pending " cases against individuals as ... wait for it .... ANDREW REID ( a blogger ) and WOODEN CAMERA and a few titles that were out of business long ago. I wonder why Phil Bloom is not there. After all he crapped on Epic camera against the EOLA he had agreed to at the time of purchase! After all this SONY is going to be a little bigger kid to get bullied around the playground. As Vitaliy suspects RED must so disparate that their hand is forced to this bluff.

  • GH2UWGH2UW

    Has anyone sued RED for "breach of promise" regarding the non-delivery of the 3k $3k Scarlet?

    After all, RED benefited enormously from the marketing hype dished out about this camera (for years!)...and many people were inconvenienced by its lack of appearance. What a load of Balderdash that was...

    Why are they wearing masks? Are they really that afraid of RED's lawyers?

  • 010101010101

    @GH2UW, Good one ! I remember somebody got kicked out from reduser forum for encouraging angry ( disappointed ) members on the case of 3K/$3K. I'm sure someone could start a class action suit if the breach of promise is actually court worthy - even for the heck of it.

  • GH2UWGH2UW

    Ha ha...well I haven't had a good night's sleep since it was cancelled...twitch, twitch...

  • fosterchenfosterchen

    To think that Red actually encouraged and wanted more competition in the 4K/raw category back when Scarlet was finally being introduced opposite of Canon's C300 reveal, and now that the competition has come, it's lawsuit up!

  • RRRRRRRR

    @fosterchen, they didn´t count on the competitors being better!

  • SageSage

    As far as "greatly injuring the general reputation of Red;" Red needs only look at itself.

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    Another theory of mine.

    Attack can be neccessary to prevent replacement of many Red cameras by Sony cameras on big films sets. Having litigation in mind top managers, lawyers and their insurance companies could want to play safe.

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