22nd of April

Vitaliy_Kiselev

>We need a more social society, inclusive not only of rich people. It will create justice, where that now can only >be bought, and right relationships where most are now destroyed by wilfull scarcity in order to plunder the >earth of its resources.

Main problem with this is that no one who have money and power will allow you to take them :-)
Today media and political system are controlled, starting from selective education (people from only few universities usually become top politicians economists or lawyers) and ending in money necessary to do anything in current world.
This is why it is useful to read classics who had been in the same situation.
Libya is good primer here - it is first where you see completely virtual image - information, interpretation and video, instead of actual picture. Same techniques will be used soon for core population of leading democratic countries to promote idea that they all must pay 60-70% of their salary to large banks.

johnnym

Yes, 60-70% is what most people are paying today. In my country the price of houses since 1990 has doubled, so working people are now paying mortgages over a period of 30 years on average, just to have a place to live in!
I expect though that there will be some kind of democratic rectification, like in the days of the French revolution, like you see people uprising in the Arab World, China, but also in the US and Europe. The same channels of information are also used to inform people about management bonuses, banks' and hedge funds' profits, and corporate tax evasion. It will be interesting to watch if people will take to the streets en masse, or believe the same lies they were always told.

Vitaliy_Kiselev

>Yes, 60-70% is what most people are paying today. In my country the price of houses since 1990 has doubled, >so working people are now paying mortgages over a period of 30 years on average, just to have a place to >live in.

I think that you got me slightly wrong. I do not mean 60-70% payment for something. I mean present, constant payment without anything back. For debts made before this moment and not by you personally.

> like you see people uprising in the Arab World, China, but also in the US and Europe.

Life is always more interesting than "democratization", "dictatorship" and "uprising".
Most of "revolutions" in Arab countries had been made by democratic world, because soon they won't have money to pay for oil and gas, so they just wan to expropriate them :-)

"Democratization" of China is other bright fantasy to not pay your debt. Sadly for one who must pay debts back, it won't happen.

>The same channels of information are also used to inform people about management bonuses, banks' and >hedge funds' profits, and corporate tax evasion.

Most of this information is filtered. System allow you to know some part of the truth. One that is pretty safe. Like managment bonuses - absolutely unimportant thing. They tell you about debt, slightly, but do not inform that monetary governors are doing, their techniques, constantly collapsing credit volumes, spending cuts and distribution of this cuts among budget parts.

>It will be interesting to watch if people will take to the streets en masse, or believe the same lies they were >always told.

People always believe lies, because every animal like to minimise their energy spent on thinking, this is evolutionaty thing. Without leaders, people are nothing but a mass with different opinions.

Mihuel

I think people from Eastern Europe and ex-USSR (of course not everyone)are in better situation because we have got practice in filtering of information from media and government :).We don't "buy" everything and we are suspicious. Unfortunately Vitaliy has damn right that people always believe lies. Reality bites and its easier live with our imaginations.So do I :). I believe in a world without borders where the sky is the limit. I think its utopia :). We are animals that think ( not everyone) they think.
Today, I've got another point of view then yesterday : I WILL BE A FATHER :) !!! So I can only sing :"Always Look On The Bright Side Of Life" :). Ok, tomorrow will came to me and bites my ass but today : Who cares ? :)
Cheers for everyone !!!

Vitaliy_Kiselev

> I believe in a world without borders where the sky is the limit.

Word without borders is cleraly utopia. No one wants to live having average salary in such a world - about $100-150 a month :-)

>"Always Look On The Bright Side Of Life"

You are damn good right. Get busy living or get busy dying.
Main thing here is to solve your own problems and remain optimistic even if you clearly see some troubles ahead.

johnnym

>I think that you got me slightly wrong. I do not mean 60-70% payment for something. I mean present, constant payment without anything back. For debts made before this moment and not by you personally.

ah, yes, i understand : like a mean income tax. Well, indeed that is happening where i live. We allegedly have a social welfare system with a 60% mean income tax, but provisions are cut every year, and people have to rely on private insurance for health care and unemployment benefits more and more.

>Most of this information is filtered. System allow you to know some part of the truth. One that is pretty safe. Like managment bonuses - absolutely unimportant thing. They tell you about debt, slightly, but do not inform that monetary governors are doing, their techniques, constantly collapsing credit volumes, spending cuts and distribution of this cuts among budget parts.

Yes i understand. Like the 1924 capital must protect itself quote, where we are all wrapped in a system that doesnt' allow major changes, because the root of it is controlled by a minority.

>Most of "revolutions" in Arab countries had been made by democratic world, because soon they won't have money to pay for oil and gas, so they just wan to expropriate them :-)

I do think they are revolutions that stem from the desire of the population in the Arab world. How else would you explain so many people resisting such horrific violence by their government?

Vitaliy_Kiselev

>I do think they are revolutions that stem from the desire of the population in the Arab world.
>How else would you explain so many people resisting such horrific violence by their government?

This one is easy.
Income level was never good in this countries. Problem with work was constant.
Except Libya where you could see pretty effective system.
This is not tightly related to regimes. So it won't be better soon.
Demonstrations are always performed by minoroty.
And source of this exact "revolutions" is... US and Europe spreading their currencies around the world.
If your income is small and resources supply is fixed (like food supply, that even decreased last year) even slight increase of money available will lead to big problem.
Plus Russia banned all wheat exports, in Egypt and his neightbours I remember it was about 20-25% of total consumption.
Add to this specially made network of "human rights" organisations who paid 5-10x of salary compared to average salasy for same qualification. And you'll get result.

Mihuel

Problem with us from "Western civilization"(and I include also Russia) is ignorance. We think that only our model of "happiness" is the best. IMO democracy is the worst political system but the best available ;)but we can't place on the strength of it where you want.Which are subject to the laws of physics do not like revolution, like evolution, and this takes time. Much time.
There is a joke in my coutry : " The difference between democracy and autocracy is that in autocracies the government does what it wants and the people have no right to interfere, and in democracy people have the right to interfere and the government is doing and so what he wants" :-)

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