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What is best way to convert for the web: 50p or 24p to 30p
  • andrevanberloandrevanberlo

    I've bought 2 GH3's PAL and want to start recording videos for the web. Now i know that 30p is best for the web but what would be the best footage/way to convert and what program or hardware to use? Would like to have option to use footage for dvd.

    50p to 30p or 24p to 30p

    Does anyone know which would give the best results? Or would 24p itself work fine? The videos are only static shots of a guitar(lesson) so no panning.

    A second question would be: i want to do live streaming with those 2 cams, would 24p be the best setting for live internet streaming? I've heard 25p is crappy and 50p not yet possible...

    Thanks!

    André

  • 20 Replies sorted by
  • balazerbalazer

    If European DVDs are what you have in mind, then just shoot 25p. Don't convert for the web. Upload it as 25p.

  • andrevanberloandrevanberlo

    Hey @Balazer thanks for your reply!

    Actually at the moment both the US and Europe are equally important. US DVD probably needs 30p I guess?

    The main thing is streaming videos online and my biggest group of followers is at the moment still in the US but the following in Europe is growing.

    I thought 25p would be choppy when played back on 60hz monitors.

  • balazerbalazer

    U.S. DVDs are 30i (60 interlaced fields per second). If U.S. and European DVDs are equally important, shoot 24p. Though 30p would be a bit better on 60 Hz monitors, the difference between 30p and 24p will be small for content of low motion. 24 fps will look fine on 60 Hz monitors. 24 fps converts to 60 cleanly by a repeating 3, 2, 3, 2 pattern. 24p can be cleanly converted to 25i for European DVDs by speeding it up 4%, or by using some frame interpolation that preserves the playback speed. Upload the 24p to the web as 24p, with no frame rate conversion.

  • andrevanberloandrevanberlo

    awesome, thanks! I was affraid I was going to have to do all sorts of converting and as it is about 800+ videos, this is a relief. Also 24p means I can also use my GH2 for some of the video work.

    I guess for the live streaming 24p will also be the way to go as people from both US and europe will be watching

  • reanrean

    @andrevanberlo "50p to 30p or 24p to 30p"...

    Keep the original frame rate. Modern TV should understand any frame rate and TV standards. Web browsers support any frame rate, too. For a file size and processing time reason I personally convert my 50p videos to 25p. For web I convert them always. 50p is too big for current worldwide hardware state.

  • andrevanberloandrevanberlo

    @rean thanks for your reply! would you pick 25p over 24p? Also considering US market?

  • reanrean

    @andrevanberlo my region uses 50p/25p standard. So it is simple to get only half frames. I use Windmotion - it can do it without a strobe.

    60fps/24fps standard, of course, not so simple. for DVD, you probably will create 60p to 60i conversion. For web, my preference in your case is to keep 60p if possible, and if this is supported by your web service. If not - to convert files to 30p (29.97, as I see). 30p is better than 24p (smooth viewing).

  • tetakpataktetakpatak

    In the web 30p is standard (not 29.97).

    For high motion quality, of course higher framerate would be much better (especially for converting them to slow motion in the post). But for the web, you would have to convert them later to 30fps.

    For the highest video quality, 24p is very nice, but converting that framerate to 30fps looks worse than if your shooting was done with 30p native. Besides the motion blur would bigger by watching the fingers and shiftings of the guitar player :-)

    So for your needs I belive shooting in 30fps would be the best.

    I have no idea if MJPEG 30p would give you better results than AVCHD 29.97p converted to 30p. Somebody else knows more about that to help our mate andrevanberlo with good advice?

  • andrevanberloandrevanberlo

    @rean the GH3 isn't hacked yet (and it might be it will never happen, who knows) so I'm stuck to either 24p, 25p or 50p. At the moment I'm looking for the most flexible setting so I can use that footage for both NTSC and PAL market.

    That's why I wondered about 24P: Al cinema footage is shot at 24P but then converted to either 25p for 30p when the movies are put on DVD's for either European or US market.

  • andrevanberloandrevanberlo

    @tetakpatak thanks for your reply!

    I think the ntsc gh3 doesn't do true 30p right? But I guess this is a tough one for me then as my camera for now only does 24,25,50p and from what i've read, 50p doesn't convert well to 30p at all...

    Hopefully Vitaliy will be able to hack the GH3 and it will happen soon. I thought of perhaps installing ntsc firmware on my gh3 but that probably doesn't work :-)

  • balazerbalazer

    It's all a question of how you value the different types of viewers.

    • 24p: good for NTSC; ok for PAL; good for the web

    • 25p: ok for NTSC; good for PAL; good for the web

    • 30p: better for NTSC; not so good for PAL; best for the web

    24p and 25p are only 1 fps different. You can convert between them by speeding up or slowing down by 4%. One continent is going to get your video at the native rate, and another continent is going to get your video sped up or slowed down or with frame interpolation artifacts. Pick the continent you like more. Speeding up by 4% is extremely common. It's how Europe gets many American TV shows and virtually all American movies. Usually they speed up the audio by 4% also and leave the pitches shifted up. The pitch shift is super annoying to me, since I'm American and I know how American shows are supposed to sound. There is software that can shift the pitches back down.

    25p on the web is going to be just barely worse than 24p. 24p will have a strictly repeating 3:2 pattern, whereas 25p is going to have one less span of 3 in each second. The difference will be hardly noticeable.

    @tetakpatak, the difference between 29.970 and 30 fps is inconsequential. It's 1 frame in 1001. You don't need to convert 29.970 to 30 to upload to the web. You can upload as 29.970. The software player and your video card will manage the frame rate conversion by repeating one frame every 33 seconds.

  • reanrean

    @andrevanberlo ok, now I understand your question. For my region TV standard is 50i. You should convert a framerate if really need to sell dvd here.

    But if you will convert 60 to 50 using a framerate change method, you will get some sound pitch shift. It is not good for music. Some musicians probably may hear this tune. I not sure it too much, probably a consulting with them are required.

    Converting using double frames, or frame interpolation would be better.

    About 60, 50, 30, 25, 24 - I personally prefer to shot with a higher framerate possible. In this case I get a lot of additional image information to make high quality framerate conversion using interpolation or denoise or other preproduction things (it is true for Windmotion where this data is used to convert framerates. Probably other software may use this, too).

    Why a higher framerate is better technically? 1. Frames will be sharper. It is good for frame interpolation algorithms, where frames used to detect motion and make motion interpolation. Blurred frame will give artifacts, because motion vectors are unknown. 2. Denoise using motion vectors. In this case after denoise you will get sharper image. 3. It is simple to make framerate conversion using interpolation, because more frames are used to make special frames with lesser time distance.

    Why a lesser framerate is better? 1. Less sharp frames- it is simple to make framerate conversion using patterns 3:2 or similar one without visible twitching artifacts. 2. Unhacked firmware uses more bitrate and the result would have less compression artifacts. 3. Nice cinema look. Some people like it to get unusual atmosphere.

  • andrevanberloandrevanberlo

    @balazer @rean thanks for your replies! So 24p and 25p are both pretty flexible, 30p is the best option for web and US but i have PAL countries to think about and My gh3 doesnt record 30p yet so it is a no go for now. Only if i could convert nicely from 50p tp 30p it would be an option.

    Can i change the refreshrate of my imac? I think i'm gonna shoot a couple of videos and test on my computer what yields the best results.

    Thanks again everyone for your input!

    André

  • KihlianKihlian

    In my experience 24p and 25p jerks on the web. So I shoot on 50p. Maybe in the future there will be the 30p option on the GH3..

  • tetakpataktetakpatak

    Thanks for reply regarding 29.97 to 30 fps, @balazer, it's good to know!

    Speeding up videos 4% (from 23.976 to 25fps) won't be an option for @andrevanberlo and his music videos with guitar playing.

    With 24fps (23.976) one normally acchieves bit better image quality than with 25fps, but as it will get slightly lost again during the rendering to final file format, I assume 25fps is probably the best options for your needs. If you will need slow motion for the presentation of some guitar technical stuff, make that shot in 50fps and slow it down later to 30 or 25 fps. Cheers :-)

  • andrevanberloandrevanberlo

    @tetakpatak @kihlian At the moment I shoot at 50p and upload to youtube where it gets changed to 25p, perhaps if it is not too much trouble you could check if it looks choppy to you, I don't live in NTSC country so can't see for myself:

    or this one, it has a little "presentation" in it

    I downloaded the footage and this is the stream info:

    Stream: How to play Wanted Dead Or Alive 3_3 by Bon Jovi - Verse - G.mp4 Path: ~/Downloads/How to play Wanted Dead Or Alive 3_3 by Bon Jovi - Verse - G.mp4

    Duration: 0:07:53 Data Size: 157.97 MB Bit Rate: 2.80 Mbps

    Video Tracks: H.264, 1920 × 1080, 25 fps, 2.61 Mbps

    Audio Tracks: MPEG-4 Audio stereo, 44.1 kHz, 192 kbps

    Stream Files: How to play Wanted Dead Or Alive 3_3 by Bon Jovi - Verse - G.mp4 (157.97 MB) .

    Thing is I will have tons of videos (more than 800) and I will have to convert them myself if necessary, so I'm looking for the best results but also least amount of work. On the other hand I will be building a hackintosh soon and probably an extra render or 2 won't make much difference.

  • balazerbalazer

    Looks fine to me. Computer monitors are 60 Hz worldwide, so we'll all see the same thing.

  • KihlianKihlian

    Looks really good.

  • andrevanberloandrevanberlo

    @balazer thanks, i didn't know that! So if it looks good on my computer it will look good everywhere, that's a reassuring thought!

  • andrevanberloandrevanberlo

    Thanks @kihlian ! It is still hard sometimes to find the best settings, sometimes results arent what i would like and can't discover the thing where it went wrong, but overall i'm pleased with what comes out of the GH3's

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