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Opinion and questions regarding RAW cinema cameras
  • SASSAS

    Hello everyone. I am completely new to this forum as well as cinematography and video cameras...

    I have a GoPro HD Hero 2 at the moment & I'm starting film school this September here in the UK.

    I know and understand the very basic principles of sound and audio for film and TV, having studied this at college and read many books as well as finding things out online & practising using audio equipment.

    I've been looking at these forthcoming "Cinema" RAW video cameras that, after post processing & colour grading, seem to be able to produce what looks to me like images almost on a par with the top of the line Arri Alexa models, and for a fraction of the price...

    I wanted to ask you all what you make of these cameras and whether or not you think me considering an investment in one of these (perhaps just before Xmas 2013) is a good plan as a student at my level...

    For example, I have been looking at the Black Magic Design Cinema Camera & the Kine Raw s16 details online.

    Do they actually do what they say on the tin? i.e produce images of a cinematic quality in the hands of the right people?

    Both of these will be within reach for me price wise next year if current speculation on price range is anything to go by. (I have read that when the BMDCC is delivered to intentional customers, it will have cost them roughly £2,150... and the KineRaw is supposedly going to cost less than that...

    What I am getting at is, from what you have gathered, do you think either camera will be worth it if the manufacturers do deliver on quality and price?

    Thanks for your time, I hope this isn't a duplicate thread.

    Listen, seriously, thanks again to anyone who responds to this. I appreciate your time and effort helping out a newbie like me.

  • 11 Replies sorted by
  • htinlahtinla

    If you do get the BMDCC with the intention of shooting RAW, make sure you have a computer that's powerful enough to process those files. Also, you will burn through hard drive storage with those large files....know what you can afford and make that a priority in your decision-making. Cool thing about the BMDCC is the option to shoot to ProRes, which makes for an easier workflow and has lower storage & processing demands than RAW. Another benefit (or not) to having one of these cameras as you enter film school: you might have more than a few classmates who will ask you to DP their films. Owning a cool camera will automatically make you somebody that people want to work with.

  • B3GuyB3Guy

    Hey, SAS . . .

    I'm a senior film student, so perhaps what I have to say here can help you out down the road. My experience is that everyone and their mother going into our area of studies goes out and buys the most awesome sub-$3K camera they can find either when they graduate, or soon after. And there's nothing wrong with that. There are many nice things about having your own camera. But ask yourself . . . do you really need that top-of-the-line camera when

    All your friends are going to have cameras you can borrow?

    Everyone buys expensive cameras and has no money left over for the other stuff. You could be "that guy".

    The guy who actually has a boom pole and a nice shotgun mic. The guy with a set of decent fresnel lights.

    What I've found is, there are plenty of nice cameras around and friends willing either to straight up borrow them to you, or "rent" them (i.e. "sure, just give me $20"). But if you have really nice other stuff, especially sound or lighting gear . . . you end up friends with everyone and helping out on everyones' projects, because, let's face it . . . they need your stuff.

    I know the Blackmagic camera looks awesome, and so does the KineRaw, I know. I'd like to have one as much as you would. But the truth is, a camera is just one tool in your box of tricks. For example, I've had my GH2 for a year or so now, and I'm certain that, if mastered . . . it can produce a very cinematic image. The truth is, the hands of the right person are far more of a factor than what camera is being used.

    The GH2 is incredible, there are Sony cameras being hacked, and Canon has inexpensive options if you're into their stuff. Do I think the BMCC and KineRaw are worth their price tags? Honestly, it remains to be seen. Why anyone would buy a camera that hasn't been well proven is beyond me, but some folks are really into this whole pre-order thing. IMO, there's no telling how a camera will really perform until it has proven itself out in the wild for a month or two. It may look good on paper, but (spoiler alert) paper can lie. Whatever you buy, don't buy something that doesn't yet exist.

  • SASSAS

    Nice One B3Guy and htinla :)

    I really appreciate the advice from both of you. I am definitely not investing until I see what I deem as proof that these cameras can deliver what I need. I will also only invest in the camera once I have the Audio & Lighting gear...

    plus the editing stuff.

    Thanks again.

  • mattherematthere

    @SAS A good thing to see is that you are looking for advice, I see too many people leaping before looking where gear is concerned.

    I am sure that the new batch of cameras will bring improvements in image quality, but I have to say that the tried and tested GH2 has very impressive quality for your hard earned £'s.

    One of the great things about the community here and the hack, is that we now have a variety of settings to choose from, I have learned through experience, that finding one's way with a new camera is about shooting a lot, experimenting, exploring, editing and generally playing with footage, and I realise that I would rather do this with footage that doesn't eat up too many resources. Thanks to Vitaliy and the rest of the community we have a huge range of settings ("film stocks") to test out our ideas, and for that I am extremely greatful :)

    The other part of the equation, is the glass you put in front of which ever camera you buy, I have heard it time and time again.. "invest in glass" the camera body is less significant.. and cameras evolve at quite a fast rate, expect to upgrade the camera body around your lens investment. So the GH2 with it's flexible mount, for me, at least, has been great. And the huge range of old glass around, that fits the GH2 mount and gives some staggering quality, has meant, finding an aesthetic for a particular projects a lot of fun... fun which is sometimes overlooked.

    I like the look of the Blackmagic footage, but also like the ability to shoot at the drop of a hat, and edit quickly to try out visual ideas, especially whilst I find my feet with moving images, I don't always want 1GB a minute or more, but to have the option to go that way, or not, on a camera that is always with me.. "priceless" YMMV :)

  • htinlahtinla

    B3Guy makes a very good point about how many film students allocate most of their budgets to acquiring a killer camera while overlooking all the other needed items that go into production. Now, if your plan is to focus specifically on cinematography, then you probably will want to pour your money into the best camera you can afford. Just know that you will at some point have to rely on either renting/borrowing out the other items necessary to make a film, which can be difficult sometimes and usually when you really need something badly (I'm talking high-demand items like lights, tripods, mics, digital audio recorders. Don't count on your school to have enough to go around, at least that was my experience in my poorly funded film program). Yes, in film school it is a very good idea to find out right away who has what equipment and make friends with each other. But yeah, assuming that you're not a millionaire, don't become obsessed with buying a super camera if that means you'd be breaking your budget on that one purchase. You'll be better off having a less fancy camera but with lights and other production necessaries. But getting back to your original topic: for film school, RAW shooting is probably overkill (unless that is part of their curricula) and you can do well with a GH2, 7D, or other comparable camera. You've probably seen the images these cameras can produce, certainly capable of cinematic quality in the right hands. And to the question of whether or not those digital cinema cameras are worth it, well, I agree that it remains to be seen.

  • SASSAS

    @ matthere, B3Guy & htinla:

    First and foremost, a massive thanks to you all for your time and guidance here.

    My earlier reply was kept brief as I was in the middle of passively watching a film.

    I am really grateful for your replies. Being an audio enthusiast who has worked with recorded sound for a number of years now, I am happy to hear that the audio equipment is generally in more high demand within a film school/student film environment. Lighting is the aspect of film making that I have looked into the least, but I do find it a fascinating subject and am aware of the importance of such a key part of the process.

    As far as any future investment in a digital video camera I plan to make, I now feel a lot more clued up than I was before starting this thread, which will no doubt make any purchase a worthier one.. :)

    So with regards to the GH2, I shall have to look into the camera as it sounds quite promising - I take it that it has been around for some time now since there are hacks for the firmware that make it a better bit of kit...

    One thing I don't want to do is buy into something I can't make good use of, such as a RAW video camera that I don't have the appropriate computer for dealing with.

    With the audio, I am looking into spending quite a bit of money at some early stage in my second year at Uni (late 2013) on some Sound Devices and Sennheiser/DPA/Schoeps gear, budget dependant. You are right to assume I'm not a millionaire lol!!

    My guess is that after University I will buy enough equipment to realise my immediate potential as a filmmaker, hopefully get some paid work for using it, and when the time is right set up my own production company or something, but this is all a far off pipe dream at this stage.

    Anyway, thank you all again, it really is helpful to get experienced people's advice, who understand my questions and want to help.

    :)

  • SASSAS

    Hi again. I now have a couple more questions about the Panasonic GH2 in particular & would really appreciate any response that can answer them:

    1) Any chance any of you could provide a link or two to some good example footage of cinematic quality footage acquired on a GH2?

    2) What is the best hack for this camera and where can I read all about it?

    thanks.

  • htinlahtinla

    Musgo, arguably one of the most cinematic GH2 productions:

    One of my favorite music videos shot on a GH2, unhacked I believe:

    Read about all the many hack versions right here on Personal View. The best one is the hack that meets your criteria for performance, reliability, and storage requirement - strength in one area is usually a tradeoff in another.

  • SASSAS

    thanks! I will look through the threads in a minute, and watch the videos now. :)

  • Vitaliy_KiselevVitaliy_Kiselev

    Can you, please keep it about RAW and not GH2?

  • SASSAS

    Ok, my mistake. I just wanted to find out people's opinions on the KineRAW s16 & Black Magic Design Cinema Camera RAW cameras in comparison with DSLRs for student use... I think I have found what I was looking for. Thanks for an ace place to discuss such matters.

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