The preferred settings for 25p

Donnie88

Hi guys, I've been away from personal view for a little while and want to catch up on things. With the release of the new hack for the 1.1 firmware, I understand a few 25p (HBR) patches have been released.

At this point, what is the most recommended patch for 25p (HBR)?

feha

I do recommend a Cluster v1 from @driftwood. It works great and very stable in all modes also HBR 25p with average 38 mbps. This works with spanning too, and almost it doubles the "stock" bit rate ... On 24p is about 70-75 mbps.

towi

Here are some settings I am finding to work very good at HBR 25p

24p25p-NINE: http://www.personal-view.com/talks/discussion/comment/45726#Comment_45726

Long GOP (GOP size = 9), moderate bitrate settings. These are likely the sharpest settings for HBR 25p. Aimed at max IQ with static scenes / tableau style work (I-frames execeed 1MB in HBR mode).

Short GOP (GOP size = 3), high bitrate settings.

bkmcwd Natural V2.0 (great allround settings): http://www.personal-view.com/talks/discussion/comment/47819#Comment_47819

bkmcwd GOP3ZILLA V2.1 (great allround settings) & bkmcwd GOLGOP3-13 V4.2 (great low light settings): http://www.personal-view.com/talks/discussion/comment/48375#Comment_48375

Short GOP (GOP size = 3). The bitrate actually utilized depends very much on the scene:

LPowell Flowmotion: http://www.personal-view.com/talks/discussion/2099/100mbps-flow-motion-v1.11-failsafe-patch-with-hbr-25p-50p-modes/p1

Lately I've been testing the 3 bkmcwd settings (Natural, GOP3ZILLA, GOLGOP3). They are all working really great for 25p! From now on GOP3ZILLA will most likely be my standard setting. For very wide shots I feel 24p25p-NINE produces the highest IQ… but GOP3ZILLA is very, very close. So I don't think switching firmwares is worth the hassle.

feha

@towi

Thanks i tested 24p25p-NINE, looks great Low light Update:I got some card errors while recording, the SD card: SanDisk 32GB Extreme HD Video 30mb/s ... I will stick with Cluster v1

Kihlian

I do not know if my eyes are going crazy after all this settings confrontation..

But from now I will shoot on 720 50p. I put two layers on Gimp, one taked from a 24p (that is given looks better that 25p) and one from 50p, from the same static video shot. The resolution is almost the same (settings driftwood sedna).

There is a list of advantages shooting on 50p:

1) You can pan and tilt how you like, without minding that the footage jerks, I find the resultant video looks more like the human eye see: quick fluid sharp movements.

2) The shutter speed on 50 is perfect, but you can also use 100 that is good to take down F aperture.

3) No more problems to interpret footage on editors as interlaced or not. It is progressive!

4) You can look the footage without problems also on PC and not only on TV (where it is looked for the most time also when showed to customers or parents or whatever)

5) It´s AVCHD 2.0 ready (only a little less resolution)

There are more frames to render but the lower resolution I thinks compensate this. And the on the paper resolution is only about 30% less, the real resolution for me really much less than this.

So it´s a personal taste but for me make a comparison, it´s worth!

sir_danish

@Kihlian: I think you are right. I´ve got some 720p footage here, that I accidentally(!) shot yesterday. After the battery pull the mode was automatically set to 720p for some reason, but I didn´t recognize it. At home I took a look at the footage, but at the first moment I thought that there was a problem with the player, because some of the alleged 1080p clips were not automatically played back in full screen mode. I had to enlarge the image manually and was very happy about the image quality. But THEN I recognized, that this is actually 720p footage! Wow! It looks so clear and detailed, I can´t believe it! 25p HBR looks horrible in comparison. I´m totally confused but amazed at the same moment now.

EDIT: Although 720p looks great with Sedna A, there is a clearly visible difference in resolution to 24p. Of course. If only 25p would be >progressive< in the true sense of the word.

towi

@Kihlian

"... 24p (that is given looks better that 25p) ..."

With the settings I've posted above 25p is literally indiscernible from 24p. Maybe not under the most demanding conditions ... but generally you can't tell 24p from 25p. If you do see a noticeable difference I suspect there's something wrong with your workflow (viewing-software, encoding-software ... whatever).

A few days ago I posted a comparision of 24p and 25p (static scene with bkmcwd Natural V1.2 modified | ISO400 | Extended Telemode)...: http://www.file-upload.net/download-4177568/natural_modified_FOTOJPEG.zip.html

Kihlian

@sir_danish In my opinion 720 looks better than 25p without all his problem. Behind thys video is video and not photo, so the movements must also looks good, we have to change us mind, it´s not all about resolution numbers, try some camera movements on 25p and 50p... I hate the look of films like Transformers from Michael Bay (if you saw it) where the footage looks like stutter.

Kihlian

@towi As i wryte before I really enjoy your natural settings, but how i wryte, on video is also important the movement. And we have also to compare 720 50p with 1080 25p...

sir_danish

@Kihlian: I see, there is something to this. The benefits of 50p are quite convictive. I could still blow it up to 1080p without my customers can see the difference... At least I hope so. ;)

towi

@Kihlian

of course video/film is about motion. Me personally I prefer the look of 24p and 25p over 50p. Please keep in mind you can only judge motion on an appropriate monitor that displays native 24p (at 24 or 48Hz) and native 25p (at 25 or 50Hz). Average computer monitors are not really suitable to judge motion. Too, the monitor should of course also display at 1:1 pixel size (1920x1080). To me 720p50 can't compete with 1080p25 ... neither with regard to motion nor with regard to resolution.

Kihlian

@towi Ok, but my cusomer want show the video also on PC trought sales representatives. I will hope that 1080i or p have a little more resolution that 720p, otherwise we take the piss... :-)

sir_danish

@Kihilian: My customer wants the same, that´s why I´m not a friend of 24p. This frame rate is rather nonsensical for what I´m doing and I live in a PAL county. I will try towi´s recommended patches for HBR and if I need some liquid motion, I may take the 720p 50 train to motion paradise.

towi

@sir_danish

"My customer wants the same, that´s why I´m not a friend of 24p. This frame rate is rather nonsensical for what I´m doing and I live in a PAL county."

But even in PAL countries computer monitors run at 60Hz. As 24 and 60 are divisible by 3 a 24p movie will play quite nicely on a computer monitor (mostly). 25p may run fine... but sometimes it may show some judder/strobeing that is actually not apparent when viewed on a 50Hz (or 25Hz) monitor.

Rambo

Don't let people discourage you from shooting 720 50p, I shoot 95% of my pro footage in that format with GH1/14-140 and when it's compared by others with 1080 from Sony, Panasonic Pro Camcorders etc, they can't believe how much better it is visually on a big plasma or LCD. As you said above it also gives you flexibility to slowmo. Try it 1/50 shutter, the motion is also nice. Perfect format for event shooters.

Kihlian

Here a comparison:

SEDNA AQ1 A:

50p=76.619 Kbt/s 24p=142.335 Kbt/s

Orion V4B: 50p=12.529 Kbt/s 24p=142.968 Kbt/s 25p=100.193 Kbt/s

And another two picture from another day with GOP3ZlLLA with towi natural settings and GOP3ZILLA mixed with SEDNA A matrix on 25p.

Swiss_Boy

@Kihlian your 2 pictures are kinda small but i don't see too much difference in details between orion v4b25p and v4b24 besides that 25p is more bright. Do you think this patch will work good in 25p? Is it stable? Right now i'm using bkmcwd Natural V2.0 and i'm kinda happy with it in 25p but i might switch to orion v4b to use in 25p.

mrbill

Give flomotion 1.1 a go. Recently shot some interviews and I'm very happy with the IQ. A good balance of quality and card usage, imo (1080 25p HBR)

Grunf

Actually, most monitors can be forced to run 50Hz. I live in PAL-istan and have two big 26-inchers for editing. I have changed refresh rate for them in my Nvidia-settings and presto: no more juddering when playing 25fps or 50fps material!

That being said, i prefer 720p50. 30% less spatial resolution but double temporal resolution! Video is about motion...otherwise we would be looking at slide show ;) 720p50 stock GOP with B-frames rocks...

Kihlian

@Swiss_Boy Don´t now. I converted my faith completely to 720 50p, I´m so enthusiastic from the smooth camera movements, not need to mind how fast to pan or tilt, can set the shutter speed from 50 to 100, maybe 25 without problems. After LumixUser test at Driftwood´s topic I´m using Sedna, it has made a mega comparison test. Try to see the differences is hard, must take two layers in Gimp, or boost the colours ecc. Made a confrontation in resolution between 720 and 1080 can´t see differences. Only thing with Sedna Q20 A is that sometime I have write errors..

olegkalyan

I like Cake, Flowmotion, Sedna C, Sanity so far looks great.. too many good settings!

olegkalyan

Had write errors with both Sedna C, Sanity, more so with the Sedna, in HBR 25 mode.. FLow motion have not tried yet, look forward to that!

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